GM Lyneya open office - 10/15/2016

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Date: 10/15/2016 (25 Uthmor 421)

Video log of Caledric's Twitch stream:

[Lyneya's Hideaway, A Small Cottage]
A well-worn desk piled high with notes and folders is set in front of glass windows that provide a breathtaking view of the river. Two wooden chairs, offering a place to sit for a discussion, face a small square table. Some shelves decorate the wall, displaying various mementos and souvenirs.
You also see a runt-sized farm pig with a rainbow-striped collar with a delicate rose gold charm on it, a questions list and a door.
Obvious exits: none.

GMs present: Lyneya, Naohhi, and Persida

Players present: Astrella, Autaris, Azettie, Baegrim, Benediction, Blighter, Buuwl, Byd, Destren, Embrace, Gabellia, Gander, Ianhanse, Isharon, Jenell, Jhien, Keroo, Kiyatia, Kyoushi, Lasika, Litrel, Lovasus, Mhisra, Navesi, Padhg, Samsaren, Sendithu, Smavandree, Taylii, Terali, Thires, Tomakok, Vorhuz, Whyt, Zalan, and Zantheuz

System Announcement: Lyneya's office is open! Feel free to go through the glowing portal in Crossing's Town Green South to join the chat on PVP Policy.

[21:40] Lyneya exclaims, "Welcome to my office!"

[21:41] Lyneya says, "Everyone stand up, we're going to do an unofficial poll."

[21:41] Smavandree says, "I need this."

[21:41] Lyneya says, "If you keep your stance on PVP OPEN, please remain standing. If you tend to do GUARDED, please kneel. If you stay CLOSED, please have a seat."

[21:42] Lyneya says, "Makes it easier for us, when talking, to have an idea of where people are coming from when they express opinions."

[21:43] Azettie says to Kiyatia, "Stand up you just were not smart enough to change it yet."

[21:43] Lyneya says, "If you keep your stance on PVP OPEN, please remain standing. If you tend to do GUARDED, please kneel. If you stay CLOSED, please have a seat."

[21:44] Lyneya says, "In case anyone missed it."

[21:46] Lyneya says, "So, I want to hear from you guys. I want to know what you think and how we can improve the current climate, which I think everyone can agree needs improvement."

[21:47] Lyneya says, "I'm leaving the room open and unhushed for now. Please join the list if you have a new comment. If you want to comment on something the current speaker is saying, please raise your hand and wait."

[21:48] Buuwl says, "Before we start I think its best to know exactly what the problem is."

[21:49] Buuwl says, "I think I know what it is, but I'd like a clear picture."

[21:49] Astrella asks, "That was my question. What exactly is the issue?"

[21:49] Jhien asks, "How do you add your name to the list?"

[21:49] Isharon says, "JOIN LIST."

[21:49] Jhien says, "Thanks."

[21:50] Lyneya says, "If you keep your stance on PVP OPEN, please remain standing. If you tend to do GUARDED, please kneel. If you stay CLOSED, please have a seat."

[21:50] Buuwl says, "I think they said join it."

[21:51] Tweet: Can't make it to the actual event but want to observe? Watch here! #PvPChat #drprime

[21:51] Byd asks, "That gives consent, right?"

[21:51] Lyneya says, "I'm going to go close that portal real quick. You can still leave at any time, just head through the door."

[21:51] Lyneya says, "Be right back."

[21:52] Gander asks, "You want some?"

[21:52] Byd says, "Asking for ... a friend."

[21:52] Lyneya says, "Ok, so this is our group for tonight."

[21:52] Gander says, "I'm part of something."

[21:53] Lyneya asks, "So, the first question I want to ask people is what do you think the issues with PVP are? I know what I have a problem with, I know what many other GMs encounter. I know what my customers complain about. What about those of you I don't hear from?"

[21:53] Jhien asks, "I presume you're going down the list and don't want us all just answering?"

[21:54] Lyneya says, "For this part, you can just say your answer, if you can summarize it briefly."

[21:54] Gander says, "Oh."

[21:54] Gander says, "That every pvp encounter ends in a consult."

[21:55] Lyneya says, "I agree, that is a problem."

[21:55] Byd says, "That everyone else can 1-shot me."

[21:55] Jhien says, "Huge rank disparities mean most fights aren't remotely equal or even skill based, which just encourages more grinding and min-maxing, leading to further disparities and even less fun pvp."

[21:55] Navesi says, "Well I see several problems."

[21:55] Lyneya says to Byd, "Work harder."

[21:55] Buuwl says, "My problem with pvp is that the penalty for getting pvp wrong i.e. getting a warning is far worse than the actual worst thing that can happen in pvp (death)."

[21:55] Samsaren says, "I think, point black, policy is too broad and convoluted. I think, frankly, it's confusing enough to allow too much grey area, which we all know there's a portion of the playerbase that abuses such. By extension, the profile system helped a little, as it did offer some minor clarity in some smaller areas, but it also helped greatly bring to light the issues IN basic policty."

[21:55] Samsaren says, "Right now, there's two clear examples of issues. You have those who game, or abuse the system to grief or hurt other players. The other extreme is those who try to hide BEHIND policy and cause issues in a different way. The Answer, to me, lies in simplicity. Policy REALLY needs to be pared down, AND, sadly, effort from upstairs needs to be made to thoroughly enforce the newer policy so it sticks."

[21:56] Kyoushi says, "I think the issues mostly boil down to complexity. Hard for GMs to police, hard for new players to understand, and extremely time consuming. Even if you make 1000 different rules for policy SUPER clear to all players somehow, thats still not going to change your situation. Needs simplification."

[21:56] Embrace kindly says, "Well said Samsaren."

[21:56] Isharon says to Buuwl, "I might like to see a 'loser gets the warning' system to discourage people from making frivolous complaints."

[21:56] Lyneya says, "Complexity is another problem I agree that we have."

[21:57] Navesi says, "I'll list the problems I see. 1. Griefing. High level people baiting others who aren't interested in PVP."

[21:57] Navesi says, "2. Disrupting without Consequences. Closed people continuously annoying or insulting others without fear of repercussions."

[21:57] Navesi says, "3. Gangs. Open PVP conflict with one person results in numerous deaths from all of their friends."

[21:57] Gander says, "Further, I think that even though policy is broad and convoluted, there are some specific directions written out (5 25) that even when specific situations are given, you still end in a consult. I think most of the time GMs should just move along unless we're in a harassment zone. In the hundreds of games ive played, this is the ONLY game that I have to deal with staff on a regular basis while playing. There is far too much staff involvement."

[21:57] Buuwl says, "When you make the penalty for screwing up pvp 100xs worse, than actually just killing someone you get an entire subset of people who grief using policy."

[21:57] Navesi says, "4. Random attacking. People who are Open subject themselves to attack at any time, when perhaps they'd prefer RPed conflict. Yet there isn't a great way right now to 'safely' RP a conflict while Guarded without the potential for someone to report."

[21:57] Navesi says, "That's my list."

[21:58] Azettie says, "The fact that I can't even kill my own characters with out someone going straight to telling me I should assist instead of getting in on the rp that could be fun."

[21:58] Azettie says, "There."

[21:58] Buuwl says, "Gander you should get that looked at."

[21:58] Lyneya says, "Culture is another issue."

[21:58] Buuwl says, "Like by a doctor or something."

[21:58] Sendithu says, "There's also issues with people having groups of friends report certain people for harassment, and other issues, trying to create some sort of 'where there's smoke there's fire' paper trail."

[21:58] Isharon says to Navesi, "Conversely, there isn't really a 'PvP Open for RP' option that will allow you to go open but not have your time wasted just because someone got bored and decided to profile check the room."

[21:59] Byd says, "The only encounter I've had with PvP as a low circle character was a glass construct attacking a PvP open character. It annoyed me for a minute, but then I decided it was amusing and fun."

[21:59] Navesi says to Isharon, "I consider that basically the same issue as my #4."

[21:59] Lyneya says, "And that does happen more often than the casual player might realize."

[21:59] Gander says, "That 'evil' is discouraged in every way, so aggressive players are forced to create their own entertainment. 'Evil' groups aren't allowed to be created ( a group like 'The Apostles' or 'Theren Guard') so there is no outlet but to cause trouble."

[21:59] Isharon says to Navesi, "Two sides of the same coin."

[21:59] Kyoushi says, "I have seen another system in a different MUD that works well. People have to actively enter the PVP system by signing up for a player-run organization called a "clan" and each clan manages its own diplomacy, rp, and pvp policy with other clans. Once entered, the people are stuck with that clan (and pvp setting) unless they pay a high cost to change or exit the pvp system."

[21:59] Buuwl asks, "If I'm a griefer do I want to kill someone, or do I want to be guarded bait them report them and get them to lose thump and offline exp drain for six months?"

[21:59] Azettie says to Gander, "We are the called the Poppies."

[22:00] Isharon jokingly asks Buuwl, "Ideally both?"

[22:00] Buuwl says, "I mean its a real problem."

[22:00] Isharon says, "I think a 'loser gets the warning' system would discourage a lot of abuse."

[22:00] Keroo says, "Griefting and pvp baiting of people not intrested in pvp, is annoying."

[22:01] Sendithu says, "I got reported once for eating a jelly bean someone threw at me. The guy seriously wanted me OOC punished for that. I mean, really."

[22:01] Buuwl says to Isharon, "That would be awesome."

[22:01] Gander says, "A loser gets a warning system encourages MORE staff involvement which is my only issue with that, though I like the retributive theme of it."

[22:01] Buuwl says to Isharon, "Like you call a GM and create a mess, and you are wrong, you eat the warning."

[22:01] Buuwl says, "No way who would go into a consult they think they might lose."

[22:01] Buuwl says, "That has to mean less staff involvement."

[22:01] Lyneya says, "That's be .. I don't know if that'd be good."

[22:01] Isharon says, "That and not warning people for refusing to turn over weapons that lodge during PvP. Don't want to lose it? Don't throw it."

[22:01] Byd says, "Not like every time I get ganked I get a warning? Cause that sounds horrible."

[22:02] Buuwl says, "I think that would be great and not only for PVP."

[22:02] Buuwl says, "Any sort of conflict."

[22:02] Samsaren says to Isharon, "That's high velosity 'gift'ing in my book."

[22:02] Gander says, "Let the population of the game police itself as a whole, deal with severe harassment situations."

[22:02] Kyoushi says, "However we decide to do it for DR, I think the GMs should move the pvp policing to a player-run organization(like the mentors now, but different) and they police themselves. GMs only need to investigate and watch the policing body."

[22:02] Baegrim says, "I think there's a huge disparity between people who grief other players for fun, buy said characters on a particular website just to get even or push their weight around the realms because they maybe had a bad experience with other people playing and those who actually encourage PVP through roleplaying on a limited basis that leads to great deals of fun among all players."

[22:03] Isharon says to Gander, "I admire your optimism about the caliber of population we have."

[22:03] Sendithu says, "Player run organizations and orders are rife with policy players. I would be 100% against that."

[22:03] Gander says, "Rank discrepancy arguments are essentially invalid because your lack of effort should not be considered."

[22:03] Byd asks, "Arn't you a mentor?"

[22:03] Azettie says to Lyneya, "I can not join your list."

[22:04] Gander says, "People report within seconds of a conflict starting, if the population could utterly destroy people who were causing a ruckus without having to have a 3 hour conversation about the merits of NEWS 5 25 with a GM, they might be more inclinced to get involved."

[22:04] Samsaren says, "I would not want the power to police policy in the hands of the average member of the playerbase."

[22:04] Buuwl says, "I would think the goal of the GMs is to formulate a policy that leads to less GM intervention than more."

[22:04] Lyneya says, "Well, we see how well policing ourselves as players works with Gwethsmashing. It's one of the most common assist reasons."

[22:04] Jhien says, "Someone who just signs up should not be told to go into the wilderness and grind solo for years before being able to even approach conflict with anyone else."

[22:04] Benediction says, "Game is strangling for interaction and people are living in echo chambers they create. Encouraging a policy that punishes people who report would be unwise. Communication needs to be encouraged not run off."

[22:04] Jhien says, "But that's a more complicated issue."

[22:04] Kyoushi says, "Definitely not average member. But they can be chosen or elected. I mean even league of legends has council of guardians."

[22:04] Gander says to Jhien, "You dont have to fight with everyone, stay in your lane and fight those around you if you want to."

[22:04] Keroo says, "Considering majority of the player base, no offense, is caseuing the pvp conflicts, having players run it would be a bad idea."

[22:05] Gander says, "Players are afraid of the MYTH of pvp, instead of the reality of it."

[22:05] Jhien says to Gander, "Then stop complaining when people, as pointed out, fall into script solo gameplay and get bored because there's nothing for them to do but script in isolation."

[22:05] Tomakok asks, "So, I've been back for 6 months. I've had two people try and bait me into a fight, and I simply ignore them and walk away. What is the real issue people are having?"

[22:05] Isharon says to Gander, "That really only works if the HLCs are in the hands of mature players. I'm not really sure that putting PvP policy in the hands of the mob is really a good idea or that people should have to join such a group as part of a PvP policy protection racket."

[22:05] Tomakok asks, "Is the issue PvP-based, or just simply maturity based?"

[22:05] Samsaren says to Keroo, "Majority might be a slight exageration, I'd wager less people pvp then more."

[22:05] Gander says to Jhien, "I didnt complain of any such thing."

[22:05] Buuwl says, "Tomakok the real issue is some people can't just walk away."

[22:05] Tomakok asks, "It's quite obvious when someone is trying to drag you into a fight. Why not walk away?"

[22:05] Buuwl says, "And then you get a situation that blows up."

[22:05] Sendithu says to Tomakok, "They can't separate player ego from character and walk away when they want to, is the thing for most people."

[22:05] Tomakok asks, "Why can't you simply walk away?"

[22:05] Gander says to Isharon, "HLCs are as mature as the environment they're given."

[22:06] Keroo says to Samsaren, "You would be suprised."

[22:06] Tomakok says, "Ok, so it's a maturity thing then."

[22:06] Gander says to Isharon, "They want entertainment and something to do, not to ruin days necessarily."

[22:06] Gander says, "Give an outlet and the issues will go down."

[22:06] Buuwl says, "Its an adult thing yes."

[22:06] Isharon says to Gander, "It might be more accurate to say they are as mature as policy requires them to be."

[22:06] Gander says, "Give them something to explode, when organizations like 'Theren Guard' exist to protect an area."

[22:06] Keroo says to Samsaren, "Granted there probley a lot of alts."

[22:06] Tomakok says, "Buuwl, not all adults are mature."

[22:06] Isharon says, "Case in point: the OOC Conflicts board."

[22:06] Benediction asks, "Ego like crowing the people you smash on twitter?"

[22:06] Gander says, "Dont penalize the evil crew for wanting to destroy it."

[22:07] Tomakok says, "It seems to me that people just need to walk away and if you get into a conflict in which you enter PvP, it's on you."

[22:07] Samsaren says to Keroo, "I have guys of all levels, pvp open, it's usually the same folks I see pvping across the board, and a lot of folks disinterested, which is fine too."

[22:07] Jhien says, "I feel like you've probably never been griefed if you're saying that."

[22:07] Kyoushi says, "Its up to GMs to make the environment and structure. people will try to game it no matter what, but as is, its way too free and complex. the complexity leaves so much grey area, and twinks love grey."

[22:07] Keroo says, "{gander but evil is aginst policy."

[22:07] Gander says, "Pvp on or off, remove guarded, remove GM involvement due to the black and white nature of on and off."

[22:07] Buuwl says, "Its actually really easy to leave a situation, its also really easy to identify harassment."

[22:07] Gander says to Keroo, "Exactly the problem."

[22:07] Tomakok says, "I'm not talking about grief."

[22:07] Persida says, "I think were getting pretty off of the topic of concise representations of what you think the issue with PVP is."

[22:07] Tomakok says, "I'm tlaking about baiting someone into a PvP conflict."

[22:08] Tomakok says, "And simply walking away."

[22:08] Gander says, "Give a mechanism to force pvp ON for players who are mouthing off or otherwise deserving of a whoopin."

[22:08] Gander says, "Figure out how fair to make that mechanism."

[22:08] Keroo says, "Acuattly i agree, there guarded needs to be removed, either you want pvp or you don't no middle groun, that just adds a grey area."

[22:08] Isharon says, "Really, most of these issues arise because people are trying to engage in PvP with a player who doesn't want it on an OOC level. You know they aren't interested (or at least aren't interested in losing). But on some level 'getting' that person feels satisfying. So you tempt fate and start or escalate a conflict that is almost certain to end up in the consult room."

[22:08] Sendithu says, "Great, you broke Lyneya."

[22:08] Persida says, "Guys. Please halt the discussion."

[22:08] You hear a voice say, "Lag is a heck of a thing."

[22:09] Lyneya says, "Lag sucks."

[22:09] Persida says, "We need to move to the list. Things are getting a bit afield."

[22:09] Gander says, "Then they shouldnt be open or guarded, if they dont want pvp on an ooc level. When they see a troublemaker come and start talking trash, they should know that person is looking for a fight. Disengage and move along. If it gets to a serious level, it would constitute harassment."

[22:09] Lyneya says, "Ok."

[22:09] Byd says, "You guys just made her quit her job."

[22:09] Kyoushi says, "I agree. Black and white. if you want to pvp, then be pvp. if you don't, then stay closed. changing shouldn't be easy, and there needs to be clear consequences for blending the line, such as closed/pvp people taunting each other or assisting during a fight."

[22:09] Byd says, "Thanks."

[22:10] Lyneya says, "Now that we all have an idea how other people in general feel."

[22:10] Buuwl is chosen from the list.

[22:11] Lyneya exclaims, "All the world is your stage!"

[22:11] Buuwl exclaims, "Sweet!"

[22:11] Buuwl says, "So my idea has always been."

[22:11] Naohhi says, "I am proxy."

[22:11] Buuwl says, "To have a person have to abide by their own stance."

[22:11] Buuwl says, "So if you are guarded you cant attack an open without consent and so on."

[22:12] Buuwl says, "An open would obviously have to have consent to attack a guarded or closed, a closed person should treat everyone else as closed."

[22:12] Lyneya says, "If you mean a mechanical limitation, that would be great but would take a TON of Development work to implement. I'm not sure we have the resources to devote to that at this current juncture."

[22:12] Buuwl says, "If a guarded or a closed person first strike attacked an open they would be putting themselves at risk for a warning."

[22:12] Buuwl says, "You could probably just threaten the warning."

[22:13] Buuwl says, "But mechanical would be better."

[22:13] Lyneya says, "That's an idea. We kind of expect people to do this already."

[22:13] Lyneya says, "I know, it doesn't always go that way in practice."

[22:13] Buuwl says, "You expect it but it often doesn't happen and players who are open end up having to take a punch before they can respond."

[22:13] Lyneya says, "And that stinks."

[22:13] Lyneya says, "Agreed."

[22:14] Lyneya asks, "So, first suggestion tonight is a more strictly enforced STANCE policy. Is that a fair summary?"

[22:14] Buuwl says, "Yes."

[22:14] Lyneya says, "Thank you."

[22:14] Lyneya asks, "Anything to add before I move on?"

[22:15] Lyneya says, "Ok, thank you for your input."

[22:15] Samsaren is chosen from the list.

[22:15] Lyneya says, "Sams."

[22:16] Samsaren says, "Hi there, one sec."

[22:17] Lyneya says, "Guys -- in general, it'll be smoother if you pretype your basic idea. What I'd prefer is to let everyone get their ideas out in a controlled manner, and then we can open up for discussion again."

[22:17] Samsaren says, "I would say my primary suggestion revolves around policy itself. Simply put there are just too many grey areas inside of it that give too many options to cause confusion, trouble, and so forth. I would suggest something a LOT more simple. One, remove Guarded, more to come. Two, remove ALL the grey area nonsense from policy and replace it will something simple like.. Don't do anything that effects the numbers, health, or gameplay of another character WITHOUT consent."

[22:17] Samsaren says, "This leaves OPEN of course being, well, open to whatever comes. And Closed would be operating inside normal policy. With the obvious caveat that if you pick a fight, and get your teeth kicked in, well, you had it comin'."

[22:17] Samsaren says, "Things like THUMP, SMASHING, STEALING, blah blah, all granting consent."

[22:18] Samsaren says, "But none of the, Well, I can vertigo bob, and bob's gotta take it, but if he shoots me for it, I can eat his face."

[22:18] Lyneya says, "Right."

[22:18] Lyneya says, "I agree, that scenario happens and it sucks."

[22:18] Samsaren says, "And of course again, the obvious, you can't just hide behind being closed, it's not a safety net."

[22:19] Samsaren says, "You pee on big barbs boots, he's gonna hurtcha."

[22:19] Samsaren says, "Thats my suggestion."

[22:19] Lyneya says, "Thank you."

[22:19] Astrella is chosen from the list.

[22:20] Persida says, "That is not what I meant to do."

[22:21] Lyneya says, "I think I fixed people logging out and back in to a weird place."

[22:22] Persida asks Lyneya, "Next person, right?"

[22:22] Lyneya says, "Astrella, feel free to join the list again but I'm going to keep moving."

[22:22] Jhien is chosen from the list.

[22:23] Jhien says, "I think there's a lot of talk about consent, and the policies and stances put up an attempt at but in many ways insufficient regulation over those actions, but ultimately I think the problem is still that there is a clear and distinct hierarchy due to rank disparities and guild development. I don't know what a good solution is to this problem, but I think due to the lack of event or storyline development, people are simply tucking off into their corners of Elanthia so they can script out more ranks. Consent is so hazy perhaps in part because of how awful some people seem to behave, how frequent metagaming factors into conflict, whiiiiiiiiiiich may be, possibly due to the aforementioned rank disparities."

[22:23] Lyneya says, "Thank you, we love the wall of text."

[22:23] Jhien says, "I tried to insert periods where appropriate even."

[22:24] Lyneya says, "We're not going to be able to do much about the rank disparity. Not easily anyways. Some people have been playing here for 20 years, myself included."

[22:24] Jhien asks, "So, I don't really have a good solution, but I think if dev maybe focused on storylines and RP more, people may be more inclined to participate instead of grind in corners of the lands. I don't know how to close the metagaming gap or the rank disparity. Maybe a PvP arena which sets ranks based on something?"

[22:25] Lyneya says, "Yes, I agree that a focus on World Events, as we call them, would help."

[22:25] Lyneya asks, "Thank you for the different perspective. Do you have anything else to add?"

[22:25] Jhien says, "Nope, thanks for letting me speak."

[22:25] Navesi is chosen from the list.

[22:25] Lyneya says, "Hello."

[22:25] Navesi says, "Hello all."

[22:26] Navesi says, "I'm going to summarize the problems I listed earlier to make it easier to follow my suggestions. The problems I see again are: 1. Griefing, 2. Disrupting without Consequences, 3. Gangs, and 4. Random attacking of those who want RPed conflict. I'll also add Complexity on there as I thought that was a good one."

[22:26] Navesi says, "The main issue I see with fixing PVP is that some of the problems I listed seem like they should be addressed in opposite ways. For example, one solution to Griefing would be to make PVP death meaningless. But that would allows the Disruptors to continue to insult/annoy without any consequences."

[22:26] Navesi says, "I'm inclined to make PVP death less punitive to address Griefing, and address Disruptors another way. My suggestion would be to prevent PVP death entirely, as with the challenge mechanics, unless both parties have officially consented to a fight to the death by using a verb."

[22:26] Navesi says, "As for Disruptors, I'd still want to allow people to address them, and I would suggest doing that with warnings (both verbal and using game verbs) that would lead to the victim's ability to attack the Disruptor and potentially even cause death."

[22:27] Navesi says, "Preventing death unless it is consented (with a verb) in game would take a lot of the teeth out of gangs as well."

[22:27] Navesi says, "The main issue here would be complexity, so the new system would have to be presented very clearly and be very easy to use. I think it would be possible though, especially with more education and links in the CM, and with the Mentors. It would also help if all info were consolidated in one place with simple examples."

[22:27] Navesi says, "It should be clear when consent is granted. A message should pop up whenever a consent verb is used, or a RP verb that disrupts someone else. Clarity is helpful."

[22:27] Navesi says, "Finally, even if my idea isn't implemented I think that the Gangs issue should be considered. Right now, anyone who is locked Open is now open to potentially dozens of attacks, which seems more punitive to me than it needs to be."

[22:27] Navesi says, "Done."

[22:28] Persida exclaims, "Thanks for adding your piece!"

[22:28] Gander is chosen from the list.

[22:29] Gander says, "20 year player here. My qualm is staff involvement, reporting, report baiting, getting reported, etc. I've never played any other game where i've ever had to interact with staff so much. I haven't had a warning since the 90s, but I've had dozens (hundreds?) of conversations with staff. I'll throw the obligatory 'you guys are great' but neither of us want to talk to eachother at the end of the day. So, my idea is Pvp OPEN and PVP closed. Amend existing first strike mechanisms you have behind the scene (for logging) to act as triggers for pvp CLOSED characters to be changed to pvp OPEN."

[22:29] Gander says, "Field consults about people calling in other characters - which would also trigger a closed to PVP OPEN automatically for involving themselves in pvp. Ideally, this is minimally resource consuming for staff by using existing mechanics and code, and reduces staff resources for consults. Further, this removes much of the grey area, and should ease a lot of the problems. A PVP stance should be difficult to change and long intervals between swaps to discourage line-hopping. Further, create an outlet for evil groups to be created, and war against other groups."

[22:29] Gander says, "Encourage groups so that lesser players could theoretically join such an organization and gain protection. Create a competitive environment for those who wanted to take place. Stop letting organizations exist, such as Theren Guard that are acting as a guard of some sort for an area but won't/can't actively fight to guard it. Make organization creation much less cumbersome overall. Encourage more group play and community building. Player organizations require much less staff development as well, and storylines are created and can play out amongst the players."

[22:31] Persida asks, "Was that all?"

[22:31] Gander says, "Oh, yeah done."

[22:31] Persida exclaims, "Thank you for all of that!"

[22:31] Padhg is chosen from the list.

[22:31] Padhg says, "I think others have already addressed other points so I will try to be concise."

[22:32] Padhg says, "Like most here I've been a few conflicts. Some were me reacting, some were others trying to game a system. I think the rules for consent have ambiguity, and this ambiguity is responsible for a lot of unnecessary conflict."

[22:32] Padhg asks, "I do think that having POLICY behind NEWS is also confusing, which contributes to confusion and abuse. My request is that perhaps the terms of consent could be clarified and combined into one place?"

[22:32] Padhg says, "That is all."

[22:32] Persida says, "I can see that being an issue for some folks."

[22:33] Persida says, "Thank you for bringing that up."

[22:33] Padhg says, "For those newer, especially."

[22:33] Sendithu is chosen from the list.

[22:33] Lyneya says, "Goes back to the complexity issue though."

[22:33] Sendithu says, "So basically two points. One, about the open/closed/guarded: I think people should only be able to see via profile up to the level of openness they are. If you're closed, everyone looks closed. If you're guarded, everyone looks guarded at most, and closed if they're actually closed. If you're open, you see it all. I think that might cut back on a smidge of the people hiding behind closed and trying to bait others."

[22:33] Sendithu says, "As a sidenote to that, people need to understand that by being pvp closed, they need to not talk back, instigate, and generally let their ego get in the way. It's okay to walk away from conflict! Really."

[22:33] Sendithu says, "Two, there needs to be some sort of something put into place for people creating false reports. I myself have had groups of people reporting me and accusing me of harassment, including claiming that I play several characters who are engaged in a course of behavior, all to get me in trouble because they didn't like what I was doing. I'm not the only one this happens to, either. I'm not saying boom, one false report, banhammer, but if it's a pattern of behavior with certain people, it's something that should be looked at."

[22:35] Persida says, "We've tended to be really lenient on folks who blatantly waste GM time, but you have a point there. There gets to be a spot where they're also wasting other players' time as well."

[22:35] Persida says, "Not that GM time isn't valuable, but it does end up going beyond that."

[22:35] Sendithu says, "It's time that could be spent on much more fun things."

[22:35] Persida says, "At least some of the time."

[22:36] Persida exclaims, "Don't I know it!"

[22:36] Lyneya asks, "Thank you for those thoughts. Do you have anyting to add?"

[22:36] Sendithu says, "Nope, I'm good."

[22:36] Isharon is chosen from the list.

[22:36] Isharon says, "Wall of text coming."

[22:36] Isharon says, "PvP policy --and the PvP climate -- are what they are because some our players, despite being old enough to have children and mortgages, are mental adolescents. On the one hand, you have players who want to grief people for the lulz, and on the other, players who want to be immune from the consequences of their characters' actions."

[22:36] Lyneya says, "Yay."

[22:36] Isharon says, "I dislike the idea of simply removing guarded (or locking everyone open on first strike), at least with PvP open meaning what it currently means, because there should be some middle ground between no PvP with anyone ever and PvP with anyone at all times, including all of that person's friends/alts. If I have a grievance with Bob -- if Bob steals from me, for example -- I should be able to engage Bob and not all of Bob's friends."

[22:37] Isharon says, "I get that people are wary of engaging in PvP with someone who is closed/guarded (even where consent or provocation seems clear), but the players who are making groundless reports are the ones who should be punished. Under our current system, there is no reason not to report someone, because you have a chance of getting the other player in trouble with no consequences for you if you make false reports."

[22:37] Isharon says, "Therefore, I propose a 'loser gets the warning' system. If you report PvP that you initiated, provoked, or otherwise escalated, YOU get the warning. This would discourage frivolous reporting and all of the nonsense that goes with that. It would also have the benefit of reducing the amount of GM time wasted on PvP consults."

[22:37] Isharon says, "I would also not be opposed to an 'open vs. open' only option or a mirror stance such the one Sendithu mentioned. It doesn't necessarily have to be implemented mechanically so long as it's enforced. However, that would still not discourage abuse among closed and guarded players, and I'm not sure how much of a deterrent effect that would have if the players who stand to benefit most from it are the ones who think that reporting is always a sign of weakness."

[22:37] Isharon says, "Done."

[22:38] Lyneya says, "Thank you, interesting idea. Dunno whether I'm a fan or not."

[22:38] Lyneya asks, "I'd fear that people think they can't report because what if they're wrong?"

[22:38] Lyneya says, "Sometimes people genuinely believe they're in the right, when they aren't."

[22:38] Isharon asks, "Would that not make them think more about how they play the game, if they really don't want PvP?"

[22:38] Persida says, "People really do report a lot that never, ever gets to the other party."

[22:39] Isharon asks, "But what about when it is clear that one party is in the wrong?"

[22:39] Persida says, "That's generally when it never gets to the other party."

[22:39] Isharon says, "Nothing deters that person from reporting right now. I think that's not ideal."

[22:39] Lyneya says, "Thank you for your thoughts."

[22:39] Lyneya asks, "Anything else?"

[22:40] Azettie is chosen from the list.

[22:40] Azettie says, "People are not willing to rp pvp or get in on something because they are afraid to die unless they get a prize. My characters are not big just have big mouths. I mean most people will stick their hands in a box to get smashed or push a button to get poisoned as long as they get something."

[22:40] Azettie says, "And like I said earlier I try to get some rp going and just have fun and the first thing that came out of someones mouth was oh you should report such and such cause you are closed. And that is only because I am lazy. But that will change right away."

[22:41] Azettie says, "I am done."

[22:41] Lyneya says, "I absolutely agree that the culture of the game right now is heading down the wrong path. People tend to report before trying to deal with anything themselves."

[22:41] Persida says, "People do seem to be increasingly avoidant of death. That's something we're trying to address, too."

[22:42] Naohhi is chosen from the list.

[22:42] Lyneya exclaims, "Proxy!"

[22:42] Naohhi says, "As mentioned, I am a proxy. I have two proxied questions."

[22:42] Naohhi asks, "From Brachius on twitch stream: Is a PvP Arena something that would be considered?"

[22:42] Lyneya says, "We have a PVP arena."

[22:42] Lyneya says, "There are games there every Monday night."

[22:42] Persida exclaims, "Wyvern arena!"

[22:43] Naohhi says, "Brachius means a pvp arena that gives everyone the same skills/stats like hunger games style, but automated."

[22:43] Lyneya asks, "Doesn't the barbarian arena do that?"

[22:44] Persida says to Lyneya, "Not really, no."

[22:44] Naohhi says, "I believe that arena disallows magic and doesn't equalize."

[22:44] Persida says, "Yup, that."

[22:44] Lyneya says, "It is something we can consider, but unlikely any time soon due to lack of coding resources and much higher priority projects."

[22:44] Naohhi says, "Brachius stated he did not know what the Barbarian arena is."

[22:45] Naohhi says, "Brachius is done."

[22:45] Naohhi says, "'From Caledric on twitch stream: Could you guys list out exactly which shops and games will have Open PvP this year? Shop by Shop... also a shop by shop list of ones that won't hehe."

[22:45] Persida says, "After Miss Proxy here finishes up, I have something I want to get input on."

[22:45] Lyneya says, "Right this minute? No."

[22:46] Persida says, "The death games will still kill people."

[22:46] Persida says, "The not-death games won't."

[22:46] Naohhi says, "Caledric says: I wasn't actually expecting the question to be asked since it was just a sly attempt to get a shop list hehe, so no."

[22:47] Naohhi says, "There are no other proxy questions at this time, which means I am done."

[22:47] Lyneya says, "I actually have the shop list open in a notepad on my desktop right now. Just need to format the text for the forums. Maybe tomorrow."

[22:47] Lyneya says, "Maybe not though, depends on how late you all keep me up and how much rum you make me drink."

[22:47] Navesi is chosen from the list.

[22:47] Navesi says, "I just wanted to add about the avoidance of death. One factor that may have added to this is the usefulness of scrolls nowadays. If you aren't able to be raised, you lose your scrolls, and these can sometimes be pretty rare or expensive. Just something to consider."

[22:48] Persida says, "It was my turn."

[22:48] Lyneya says to Persida, "Jealousy does not become you."

[22:48] Navesi says to Persida, "Sorry."

[22:48] Lyneya says, "Oh, sorry, I thought you wanted my rum."

[22:48] Navesi says, "I'm done."

[22:48] Persida says, "Oh don't be silly, go ahead."

[22:48] Navesi says, "That really was it."

[22:49] Persida exclaims, "Okay!"

[22:49] Persida says, "And I agree that's a big reason people avoid death."

[22:50] Persida says, "Okay, so I'm going to ask my question, and if you have a response to it, please join the list."

[22:51] Persida says, "So, I want to talk about PVP Open. My stance is that a lot of people who set themselves PVP Open don't actually WANT to be PVP Open by the current definition."

[22:52] Persida says, "But I feel like there are two reasons that they do it anyway, then end up pretty unhappy overall."

[22:52] Persida says, "1) They feel pressure to be PVP Open or they'll be seen as reporters by the community."

[22:53] Persida says, "2) They want to RP conflicts naturally, and feel Guarded doesn't really quite meet their needs."

[22:53] Persida says, "Yet they have no real love for constant 24/7 being jumped for no reason at all."

[22:54] Persida asks, "Am I off base here, or do you think I'm onto something? If you see this as a problem, what would you suggest be done to address it?"

[22:54] Mhisra is chosen from the list.

[22:54] Persida asks Mhisra, "Did you have something you wanted to say on this, or do you want to wait until we go back to the regular list?"

[22:54] Mhisra says, "I have a part I'd like to add."

[22:55] Persida says, "You can do both, though, if you like."

[22:55] Mhisra says, "But not on this topic."

[22:55] Mhisra says, "So I'll come back to the regular list."

[22:55] Persida says, "Sure thing."

[22:55] Lasika is chosen from the list.

[22:55] Lasika says, "I would like to see more roleplaying in PVP, like Azettie said (though she may disagree with my interpretation of it). Right now I get the distinct impression the two are at odds with each other. OPEN is very punishing, in the whole "any place, any time" aspect of it. It allows smaller people to get steamrolled by anyone, with no recourse. This happened to me, and I wouldn't have minded so much if there was just a reason, any reason, for them to target me."

[22:55] Lasika says, "Navesi's idea of changing CHALLENGE would help address that, I think. First strike having to have consent, even from people who are OPEN. I should be allowed, if I did not instigate something and have been minding my own business, to decline an attack from someone a hundred circles higher than me, just because they wanted to have an easy kill."

[22:56] Lasika says, "I don't want to lose GUARDED, as it stands now. I don't want to be forced into CLOSED because I don't agree with getting beheaded at any moment, for any reason. I want interaction, and reasonable consequences. I want to be able to punch someone who insults me, instead of turning the other cheek, without being drawn into a conflict beyond the person who insulted me. I want to be able to rifle in someone's pocket without having to worry about a gang of HLCs bearing down on me because they checked my profile that day."

[22:56] Lasika says, "In regards to player stealing specifically, the ability to do that without changing their numbers would be awesome. To create conflict with them without actually hurting their bank. Otherwise, if Stealing is a PVP attack, it should be limited to people who consent to PVP attacks."

[22:56] Lasika says, "Lastly, additional messaging when being gwethsmashed. I see on twitter the reasons behind a lot of smashings, and I have come to agree with them, but I also see from the other perspective: the person has no idea why that happened. They don't get they were being OOC or using acronyms or emotes. Give a little message suggesting "Hey, if you got smashed and you can't think of a reason for it, consider these possibilities before reporting, also, don't report because its not allowed for gwethsmashes"? Cut down on a lot of reports and assists that way, I'd think."

[22:56] Lasika exclaims, "And that's all!"

[22:56] Lyneya says, "Thank you for wall of text. We like that."

[22:56] Persida says, "That's a lot of stuff! Some of it in relation to my question."

[22:57] Persida exclaims, "Thank you for that!"

[22:57] Lasika says, "I started writing that before you brought it up."

[22:58] Persida asks, "Do you have anything else you want to add on my question before I move on?"

[22:58] Lasika says, "Ummm..."

[22:58] Lasika says, "Somewhat, kind of, but I can't articulate it fast enough, so moving on is fine."

[22:58] Persida exclaims, "You can always rejoin!"

[22:58] Persida says, "Thank you again."

[22:58] Gander is chosen from the list.

[22:58] Gander says, "I agree, people go pvp open and don't realize the consequences of such a change, even with the lengthy and verbose mechanics that explain what's going on to you. Your assessment in 1) is generally correct, but also that death means absolutely nothing these days (compared to years past) and pvp OPEN is not something to be feared and i think 'pressure' is less of the point. Randomized kills are few and far between."

[22:58] Gander says, "I don't know how to make people lighten up about dying though, without making it even LESS penalizing than it has been made over the last few years."

[22:59] Gander says, "I don't believe 2) exists at all, in my circle at least. I agree that many people who are open don't seem to want to be as 'open' as it makes them. I think the biggest issue is there is no way to effectively 'win' in any way, so things tend to last way too long and simply becomes an ego-trip back and forth."

[22:59] Gander says, "That is the end of my comment and response."

[22:59] Persida exclaims, "Thanks!"

[22:59] Jhien is chosen from the list.

[22:59] Jhien says, "I also don't want to lose guarded, but I do want to see a policy revision to better address what guarded should represent. Maybe some sort of automated logging of all pvp, though i'm not sure how to pick up what leads into that conflict. Furthermore, and maybe unwisely for me to bring up, I think it may be worth revisiting Necromancer consent/policy, because I see nothing but a binary between people who think it's best to either blow up public spaces with USOL and zombies, or people who generally stay in the wildneress and avoid all conflict. Again, no real suggestions, just my perspective."

[23:00] Jhien says, "I've been pretty appalled at th ebehavior of a lot of players in thsi game, but i think it'd be a shame to let them dictate the fun that gets had between a lot of the other players."

[23:00] Jhien says, "And i'm not sure what sort of reasonable balance could be struck there. That's all."

[23:01] Persida says, "Never unwise to bring things up. Team Necro has been, and still is pretty unhappy about how a lot of stuff has shaken out. We're working on Stuff to addressing things, but by all means, input away too."

[23:01] Persida says, "And yeah, reasonable balance is the sticky spot."

[23:02] Persida exclaims, "Thank you for your comments!"

[23:02] Keroo is chosen from the list.

[23:02] Keroo says, "I remain pvp closed because i do not want to be jumped at any moment expecially after i spent an hour or two grind out exp just to lose it cause some person wants to get there jollies off, but i also notice by large the community holds people who are pvp closed and guaded with disdan because they treat them as whiners and generally weak people, now this may be because of the grifers who are closed and guarded which set in the stigma of if your not pvp open your trash."

[23:02] Keroo says, "So yes in general i feel and have noticed there is a stigma aginst people who are not pvp open which makes you feel like your bullied into being open even when you dont want to or people will look down on you. The only possibly fix i see if a stricter policy with little to no grey areas for abuse so the stances acuattly act as there intended."

[23:02] Keroo says, "Thats it."

[23:03] Persida says, "Thank you, Keroo."

[23:03] Navesi is chosen from the list.

[23:03] Navesi says, "Hi again."

[23:03] Navesi says, "More text incoming."

[23:03] Persida exclaims, "Hi!"

[23:03] Navesi says, "To give you a little bit of history about me, I was Open with Navesi for several years, almost since the beginning with her, only taking a break from it a few days ago. For me it was a little bit of Persida's #1, a large part #2, and a moderate part actually enjoying being open to conflict from anyone. I do actually like that part, it just can sometimes come at the wrong time or cause me to lose a nice scroll, and for those reasons Open isn't perfect for me."

[23:03] Persida says, "We eat alll the text."

[23:03] Navesi says, "Part of the reason I suggested PVP death be less punitive, or at least with more control over whether you actually die, is so that I could choose in any instance what level of participation I want to have."

[23:04] Navesi says, "Another option would be a few more protections against losing scrolls or being unraisable. I really would find death much more fun that way."

[23:04] Navesi says, "And for the record I don't look down on anyone who is Closed or Guarded. Play the game how you want to play it."

[23:04] Persida says, "Specifically changing PVP death has been something I'm personally interested in. That's not me saying it's going to happen, just my personal leanings."

[23:05] Persida says, "But it's something that for me, at least, is an area I feel we're lacking."

[23:05] Persida exclaims, "Thank you for your comments. Again!"

[23:05] Navesi says, "I agree. I feel like there has to be a happy medium where we can all be happy."

[23:06] Navesi exclaims, "Thank you for having us!"

[23:06] Persida says, "I think at least something close to a medium exists."

[23:06] Persida says, "Outliers will be outliers, but yanno."

[23:06] Sendithu is chosen from the list.

[23:06] Sendithu says, "Oh hi, me again."

[23:06] Sendithu says, "Speaking on behalf of myself and my esteemed colleague Caidie, we do warn people sometimes about gweth things before we smash them for it, some people just don't learn. As far as the 24/7 jumping thing, does anybody REALLY want to be attacked all the time forever? Even the most fast trigger finger, fight anyone all the time for any reason people blow a gasket if they get attacked while hunting, or lose to a girl, or whatever rule is in their head. A lot of it -is- self policed, too, and a lot of us will step in if asked if a person is getting picked on needlessly. The problem to me is that people think they're right all the time and won't check their ego long enough to see that what they're doing is actually provoking someone else."

[23:06] Persida exclaims, "Hi to you again, too!"

[23:07] Persida says, "I tend to agree that almost nobody *really* is up for 24/7 nonstop PVP in DR."

[23:07] Sendithu says, "But I also think it's funny that people have no problem dying in invasions, but if another character kills them, it's a huge deal. Ego, again, I think."

[23:08] Persida says, "Oh trust me, there are people who have plenty of problem with dying in invasions, too."

[23:08] Sendithu says, "Hah, I bet."

[23:08] Lyneya says, "I witnessed someone report a GMPC for unconsented PVP. No lie."

[23:08] Persida says, "You don't get to see my emails, etc."

[23:08] Sendithu says, "Totally believe it. I put nothing past people anymore."

[23:09] Persida says, "Eh, I'd drop the anymore."

[23:09] Lyneya says, "It was .. years and years ago. The GMPC was Grishnok."

[23:09] Sendithu says, "He was gross and deserved the lockout."

[23:09] Persida says, "It's just a fact of life. No matter what it is, there's always someone."

[23:10] Persida says, "But that's what I meant by outliers before, and that's honestly who I think our current PVP Open definition appeals to -- only pretty extreme outliers."

[23:10] Persida says, "Most people have limits, or like you said, their own internal rules."

[23:10] Sendithu says, "But seriously even the gwethsmashing, and I hate to keep circling back. I feel like when I warn people via rings or whatever, they tend to double down on whatever they're doing, whether it's emotes or OOC talk or whatnot just to be like screw you you don't control me...okies, smash it is."

[23:10] Persida says, "Some more than others, some that they only apply to others and not themselves."

[23:11] Persida exclaims, "Thank you for all of your input!"

[23:11] Sendithu exclaims, "Of course!"

[23:11] Isharon is chosen from the list.

[23:11] Isharon says, "I was PvP open for a long time for reason #2 (a gesture of goodwill toward my fellow role-players), and I eventually ended up switching back to guarded after being randomly ganked (while mapping a new area) by someone who admitted he was just bored and who refused to role-play with me about it."

[23:11] Isharon says, "RP-less PvP is unsatisfying for me whether I win or lose. Death is less punitive than it once was, but it's still a nuisance that, at the very least, involves lost time (replacing experience and favors and/or waiting for a raise), and I want what leads up to death to be 'worth' the price of admission. So guarded is the best option for me right now, even though it has the downside of constraining legitimate RP at times."

[23:12] Isharon says, "(Similarly, I am not really interested in engaging with all of a person's alts and friends when my character's grievance is really just with one particular person.)."

[23:12] Isharon says, "I don't know that there's a mechanical or policy fix to this problem that would improve the quality of experience for the 'RP open' players. But it's worth acknowledging the existence of the problem before saying you have to be open (as it currently means) to engage in any PvP."

[23:12] Isharon says, "Done."

[23:13] Persida asks, "Do you think you'd feel the same if you didn't lose any exp, or scrolls, or items, and could just depart without any consequence from a PVP death other than walking back to where you were?"

[23:14] Isharon says to Persida, "The less time I lost, the less annoyed I would be when someone with no interest in role-playing just got bored and checked profiles."

[23:14] Isharon says to Persida, "But I also get that death needs to have some teeth. It is already not taken seriously, and this is bleeding into the IC scene as well."

[23:15] Persida says, "Thank you for your input."

[23:15] Samsaren is chosen from the list.

[23:15] Samsaren says, "The thing I'm finding interesting from this discussion is it helps, to me, highlight exactly why I think Guarded needs to go, and policy cleared up. The Pro Guarded folks seem to be championing the idea, to me, of "I'm game, what it's approprate". However, there's no honest difference between that, and closed, once the person behind the keyboard gets involved. It just becomes another grey area."

[23:15] Samsaren says, "Speaking from the POV as someone who's open, and yes, -I- am a high circle Paladin, my open alts are hilariously NOT high circle, and this includes a higher level necromancer, coming into a conflict as an OPEN person you HAVE to treat Closed and Guarded as exactly the same. To do otherwise is to court disaster."

[23:15] Samsaren says, "Perhaps a middle ground here is to make a slightly broader usage of challenge. If the folks who are currently rockin' Guarded are in a situation where throwing down feels like the RP correct thing to do, being able to slap someone with the perverbial gauntlet and go to town (logged mechanical for GMs for down the road) might be the better answer for those folks there."

[23:15] Samsaren says, "A final note on the topic of well, "street-cred" about profile stances. WHO CARES? If YOU, the person reading this, feels some kinda way about what noise someone else is talking about a stance, take a deep breath. That goes for OPEN, CLOSED, or GUARDED. There's no special prize for being open, there's no loss for being closed, except what you take from it yourself. I'm Personally OPEN, because I feel like if I want to throw down when it's time for such, I need to be willing to take the punch too, not REQUIRE the other guy to get hit first. Do ganks suck? All day. But we're talking about policy from the good of the game point of view, not the ninnies (on both sides) that we all know bring it all down."

[23:17] Persida exclaims, "Thank you for all of that!"

[23:17] Samsaren says, "I may have had a little time to prepare that.."

[23:18] Persida says, "Maybe juuuust a little."

[23:18] Persida asks, "Do you want to add anything else before I move on?"

[23:18] Samsaren says, "Not unless there's questions about any of those points."

[23:18] Persida says, "Nah, I think I'm picking up what you're putting down."

[23:18] Azettie is chosen from the list.

[23:18] Azettie says, "If you have to be open because you are worried about being seen as a reporter than you more than likely have done it. I do however think that if you gweth you should be forced into a pvp able stance."

[23:19] Azettie says, "Play the game or don't. No matter what rules you set forth people will abuse them or cry about them."

[23:19] Azettie says, "It is will never happen in a world where pvp even when people are not wanting it that someone is not gonna get there feelings hurt."

[23:19] Azettie says, "All finished."

[23:20] Persida exclaims, "Thank you!"

[23:20] Mhisra is chosen from the list.

[23:20] Mhisra says, "Other issues with managing the PvP aside, I feel like the current system offers a lot and provides a fun way to participate in PvP. However, the single biggest factor that prevents me from wanting to join in on PvP is the way it opens you up to grave robbing. When you can lose items that cannot be replaced, there's no reward worth that risk. Sure you could put those items away in the vault, but your PvP stint may have opened up consent that could last who knows how long, forcing you to keep those things vaulted. With no grave robbing, you'd be able to freely participate in a PvP system where the only downside is PvP happening (death), which seems good to me."

[23:20] Mhisra says, "Done."

[23:21] Persida says, "Yeah, item loss is a big area we're working on. Totally feel you there."

[23:21] Persida says, "Thank you."

[23:21] Lasika is chosen from the list.

[23:21] Lasika says, "I quote: Persida says, "1) They feel pressure to be PVP Open or they'll be seen as reporters by the community."

[23:21] Lasika says, "There is a problem with this, in quite a few players. I know one, lets call them Bob, that has gone Guarded, and rumours through the grapevine came through to Bob that the people who drove them to that decision were proud of themselves for it - that they had actually focused on Bob to achieve this outcome. It can be a big self-esteem blow when it goes all OOC like that, when its not your character's ego, but your own on the line. But when you've got jobs and school, losing a few hours' grinding *is* a big deal, and no one should be made to feel less than they are because they value their time over the image of being able to shrug off anything."

[23:21] Lasika says, "Apart from that, I'd like to bring up the Necromancer thing again. If there's a strict, black-and-white, closed-or-open change, wouldn't that kind of muck up the RP of necromancers? You'd have closed people who can't engage in any way, without being drawn into conflict bigger than they can handle. If breaking CLOSED to initiate a bit of snark with a necromancer turns them OPEN to everything that entails, you'd effectively be making everyone A-OK with necromancy in all its forms when confronted with a necro player character."

[23:22] Lasika says, "That's all... for now."

[23:22] Persida says, "Decent point, that. Thank you for speaking up."

[23:22] Naohhi is chosen from the list.

[23:23] Persida says, "Oh god, you again."

[23:23] Lyneya asks, "Who are you proxy for this time?"

[23:23] Naohhi asks, "'From Esmian on twitch stream: I guess my question would be should that threat by another player's whims and how much should they have to tolerate?"

[23:23] Persida says, "I'm not sure I'm following."

[23:24] Persida asks, "Can they clarify?"

[23:24] Naohhi says, "Asking."

[23:25] Naohhi says, "Apparently he meant the comment for a twitch discussion, but to reference that.. I'm getting context, apologies."

[23:26] Naohhi says, "Tanthul85: People take dying too seriously. pendragonprice: I mean.. if you take all the "threat" out of the game nothing means anything."

[23:26] Naohhi says, "The threat in this conversation was referencing the consequences of death."

[23:27] Naohhi says, "Ie, how much of that should someone have to tolerate."

[23:27] Naohhi says, "Esmian: people were wondering where would the threat be in the game and I was asking how much of that threat should be "the guy across the keyboard just wants to kill me."

[23:27] Persida asks, "Ahh, so my comments about potentially removing penalties from PVP deaths?"

[23:27] Naohhi says, "Esmian: it was something about taking the threat out of pvp if we do things like lower death penalties."

[23:28] Naohhi says, "They were discussing the removal of penalities from pvp deaths pretty strongly."

[23:28] Persida says, "It's a valid feeling on it, to miss the threat level. I'm just not sure if I don't think we might see a lot more benefits from it than what's missed."

[23:28] Persida asks, "Was there anything else, Miss Proxy?"

[23:28] Naohhi says, "I was given a point to bring up on this one: The problem with that outlook is that as you grow up, your time becomes more valuable -- especially that commodity called free time. I have less tolerance for people who steal my free time than I did when I was 15."

[23:29] Naohhi says, "I also have another proxy question incoming, though it may be a comment. Waiting a moment."

[23:29] Naohhi says, "Following on Esmian topic. pendragonprice: Tell Persida that if you take all the hurt out of the game, the game will die. People don't want a utopia...thats why the matrix didn't work."

[23:30] Persida says, "As an old and grouchy person who actually liked PVP quite a bit back in her day -- up hill, both ways in the snow -- I totally get that too."

[23:30] Persida asks, "Was there more?"

[23:30] Naohhi says, "Not currently. Still waiting the other commenter."

[23:30] Naohhi says, "They were hitting a word limit."

[23:31] Persida says, "Alrighty. I'm going to hand stuff back over to Lyneya, then."

[23:31] Naohhi says, "Terramotus: I don't know the answer to the current problems with our PvP situation, but I've seen a lot of talk here that basically amounts to "we have to make sure that lowbies who run their mouths are able to be suitably punished without being able to hide behind policy."

[23:31] Naohhi says, "I don't think that's the major issue confronting us, and I don't think it's healthy for DR to be a game where it's understood that you have to shut up and keep your head down unless you're a HLC. That serves only a small slice of the existing population, and does nothing to make the game more welcoming to new blood."

[23:32] Persida says, "I can assure everyone that at least I have zero inclination to make anyone shut up and script in a corner until they're THIS TALL and can get on the ride."

[23:32] Persida says, "It's more about making things work at all levels and all sides."

[23:33] Naohhi says, "I beleive I'm done as proxy for now."

[23:33] Persida says, "Oh. She's not letting me off of the hook."

[23:33] Naohhi says, "Believe. SPELLING."

[23:33] Lyneya says, "You're so done."

[23:33] Keroo is chosen from the list.

[23:33] Keroo says, "Terramouts covered what i was going to say,."

[23:34] Persida asks, "Did you have anything you wanted to add to it?"

[23:35] Keroo says, "Not really, aside that letting bullies just bully you just ebcause yoru clsoed is not the right way to ahndle it."

[23:35] Persida says, "Thank you for that."

[23:35] Benediction is chosen from the list.

[23:35] Benediction says, "Dragonrealms is a game and games are meant to be fun even if they are played by people with house payments and children of their own. If its not fun people will find ways to make it fun for themselves. Even if it means it isnt for everyone else."

[23:36] Benediction says, "I don't think warning people who feel an experience with another player was handled incorrectly is the right answer, nor is smashing people into silence and gloating about it on a twitter feed. The game population is tiny, interactions should be encouraged and if a warning must be laid out it shouldnt irrevocably damage an account or make someone unwilling to participate in player run or GM events, the community does enough of that on its own."

[23:37] Lyneya says, "I'm going to close the list, let these last people make their comments, unhush for open discussion for a few minutes, and then redirect the conversation. Just FYI."

[23:37] Lyneya closes the list.

[23:37] Benediction asks, "If you have your pvp profile set to open and you didnt like an interaction with a player whats wrong with encouraging a player to simply talk to the other? Everyone here has played for 5 10 or 20 years?"

[23:37] Persida says, "Not everyone, but many."

[23:37] Benediction says, "I think a lot of good would come from a simple conversation, thats all."

[23:38] Persida says, "Often, yeah."

[23:38] Lyneya says, "This is true."

[23:38] Lyneya says, "I'll repeat something I said in a consult earlier today:."

[23:38] Lyneya asks, "In my experience as a GM answering assists and helping players to sort these things out, many people sometimes make assumptions about how someone else is GOING to act based on "the awful thing they heard had happened to their friend's cousin's bonded spouses's maid" and they don't want that awful thing to happen to themselves. So they proactively overreact before bothering to communicate. It's understandable, it's human nature. In this environment though, it's often times premature. An OOC whisper goes a LONG WAY toward clearning up exactly these misunderstandings. When a WARN INTERACT or a REPORT is used instead, then the situation immediately becomes confrontational because the recipient wonders what the heck, why didn't the guy just SAY something?"

[23:38] Lyneya says, "Hurt feelings on both sides can be avoided by simply TALKING to each other. Just try to keep that in mind going forward. Thank you all for working together here today to try and resolve things."

[23:39] Lyneya says, "It was an interesting consult."

[23:39] Naohhi says, "It was productive, stressful, hard, but ultimately, good."

[23:39] Persida says, "I was making stuff for HE, so I missed it."

[23:39] Azettie is chosen from the list.

[23:40] Azettie says, "You can go to the next."

[23:40] Azettie says, "I am finished."

[23:40] Gander is chosen from the list.

[23:40] Gander says, "In response to "Terramotus: I don't know the answer to the current problems with our PvP situation, but I've seen a lot of talk here that basically amounts to "we have to make sure that lowbies who run their mouths are able to be suitably punished without being able to hide behind policy."

[23:40] Gander says, "I think it is almost appropriate that people have to 'watch who they talk to'. You don't walk into a biker bar and run your mouth to someone who looks like they'd kill you in real life without expecting consequences - why should you here? When I was young playing this game for the first time, my biggest memory is the 'big bad guys' that used to exist."

[23:40] Gander says, "People who had reputations in front of them, and you knew not to piss off. It gave me something to achieve, something to strive for. If it gets out of hand - address it, but beyond that - actions should have consequences. Period."

[23:40] Gander says, "I think it is almost appropriate that people have to 'watch who they talk to'. You don't walk into a biker bar and run your mouth to someone who looks like they'd kill you in real life without expecting consequences - why should you here? When I was young playing this game for the first time, my biggest memory is the 'big bad guys' that used to exist."

[23:40] Gander says, "To add, I have house payments and all that jazz too - play the game or don't, commit or don't commit, but don't expect a lack of time and effort to be equalized with those that expend it."

[23:40] Gander says, "That's all for this one."

[23:40] Lyneya says, "Thank you."

[23:41] Lyneya says, "Ok, I'm going to unhush the room for a few minutes so that we can have some open discussion on the points and comments so far tonight."

[23:41] Azettie says to Gander, "I don't know you but I think I like you. So watch it I am coming for you."

[23:41] Lyneya says, "If anyone wants to, anyway."

[23:41] Persida says, "I'm not even a pumpkin anymore."

[23:42] Tomakok asks, "So, why not a cooldown for Smashers then?"

[23:42] Azettie says, "They have them."

[23:42] Samsaren says, "It's got a massive one."

[23:42] Tomakok asks, "How long?"

[23:42] Samsaren says, "12 hours."

[23:42] Tomakok asks, "12 hours is long?"

[23:42] Tomakok asks, "Massive?"

[23:42] Sendithu says, "24."

[23:42] Gander asks, "How often do you mouth off on the gweth?"

[23:42] Samsaren says, "Have you READ the gweths? 15 minutes is long."

[23:42] Baegrim says, "Smashers shoulld only limt people's ability to think, not recieving outgoing thoughts."

[23:42] Gander says, "Who even uses gweths anymore anyways."

[23:42] Gander says, "A bunch of drivel."

[23:42] Tomakok says, "Yeah, but I see people treat it like their own bully area. "you follow my rules or get smashed."

[23:42] Smavandree says, "I have a complaint about the GM who is acting as the proxy on my stream... about halfway through she took off her pants... The complaint is we couldn't see her."

[23:43] Tomakok asks, "Who made them kin?"

[23:43] Sendithu says, "24 hour cooldown for the smasher, one hour cooldown for the person who used the smasher. Not that I know."

[23:43] Tomakok asks, "King?"

[23:43] Naohhi says to Smavandree, "Joke is on you, I haven't had pants on the entire time."

[23:43] Tomakok says, "I've seen people simply not like the conversation and just smash people."

[23:44] Tomakok exclaims, "Oh, but they've "warned" them!"

[23:44] Gander asks, "So?"

[23:44] Azettie says, "That is fear talking if you are afraid to get smashed don't use a gweth, and to that I mouth off on the gweth all the time. And I have favors."

[23:44] Tomakok says, "Seems like a lot of people here take out their RL "small man" complexes."

[23:44] Tomakok says, "Or woman."

[23:44] Gander says, "Maybe people just dont like what you have to say."

[23:44] Azettie says, "We don't all rp heros."

[23:44] Tomakok exclaims, "My boss was mean to me! No more emotes or silly talk!"

[23:44] Gander says, "And a mechanism exists to correct that."

[23:44] Gander says, "And it is used."

[23:44] Tomakok says, "Good one Gander."

[23:45] Gander says, "Perhaps you should adjust your attitude or the dialogue that you engage in."

[23:45] Whyt says, "And if you have been smashed you have no recourse, it isn't reportable correct? seems to me like all the power lies with the smasher."

[23:45] Gander says, "Go kill them."

[23:45] Gander says, "Otherwise, you've been silenced."

[23:45] Tomakok says, "Yeah, that works."

[23:45] Whyt says, "In ten years maybe."

[23:45] Samsaren says, "The smasher is locked open, go express your displeasure with a weapon, or hire someone to do so."

[23:45] Smavandree says, "You do have recourse..."

[23:45] Tomakok says, "With all these ebay'd or 20 year old characters who have RL issues."

[23:45] Gander says, "Go get a new gweth if it means that much to you, and move along."

[23:45] Samsaren says, "I hear Caidie takes contracts."

[23:45] Smavandree says, "Good luck with getting your recourse though."

[23:46] Lyneya says, "If you gwethsmash someone, you're locked OPEN for .. how long now? I forget."

[23:46] Gander says, "I dont understand why everything is expected to be 'fair for everyone at all times'."

[23:46] Gander says, "This isnt a chat room."

[23:46] Gander says, "Its a social environment."

[23:46] Lyneya says, "So there's recourse available. Find someone to go pay them back for you."

[23:46] Gander says, "Society isn't nice all the time."

[23:46] Padhg says, "Locked open 4 RL hours."

[23:46] Samsaren says, "It's a good while if memory serves."

[23:46] Padhg asks, "I think it's the same as stealing?"

[23:46] Azettie asks Gander, "Are you trying to make me fall in love with you?"

[23:46] Smavandree says, "4 hours is more than enough time."

[23:46] Sendithu says, "I've gotten killed before for smashing people. I've gotten smashed for smashing people. It happens."

[23:46] Naohhi says, "I believe all pvp locks are 4 hours. There used to be a diff one but Ricinus set them all the same to stop confusion."

[23:46] Sendithu says, "Nobody in this game is untouchable."

[23:46] Smavandree says, "Cause I know Sendi doesn't smash someone then run and hide."

[23:46] Samsaren says, "You getting smashed actually lead to a rather fun RP thingy last go."

[23:47] Gander says to Sendithu, "Absolutely true."

[23:47] Persida says, "When I was a player, I used to smash people a lot. A LOT. I was killed for it, I was smashed for it, I got confronted and had great RP from it."

[23:47] Sendithu says, "Sendi hides a lot as an occupational hazard."

[23:47] Tomakok says, "Seems like a tool for people that have low self esteem."

[23:47] Gander says, "Seems like you're too sensitive on the subject."

[23:47] Tomakok says, "Possibly."

[23:48] Persida says, "For me, it was a tool that my character used. Now whether my character had low self esteem remains up for debate."

[23:48] Tomakok says, "Quite possibly."

[23:48] Gander says, "Man up, figure out what you're doing that annoys people, and change it. Or continue and expect the same reactions, or similar and worse ones."

[23:48] Samsaren says to Smavandree, "If it helps, I usually just smash from a hunting ground, come join me, ups the spawn."

[23:48] Lyneya says, "Ok. Let me turn this in another direction."

[23:48] Tomakok says, "Having never been smashed, I can't say I know one way or the other."

[23:48] Azettie says, "I got killed for rping I drew nasty pictures in the apostles books it is fun try it or go back and grind this is suppose to be an rp game."

[23:48] Lyneya says, "Actually, keep chatting. I'll type it up so you don't have to wait quietly."

[23:48] Gander asks, "Then why the salt on the subject?"

[23:48] Whyt says, "I see new returning players who are smashed, when maybe all they needed was a reminder on gweth ettiquete."

[23:48] Gander says, "It's such a nonissue."

[23:48] Tomakok says, "But I've seen some stupid smashes, over petty childish things."

[23:48] Samsaren says, "You're awful hot for never been smashed."

[23:48] Gander says, "A smash is a great reminder."

[23:48] Tomakok says, "Yeah, but I saw someone bring it up."

[23:49] Whyt says, "Those people don't have plat or contacts yet, seems discouraging when we need to be encouraging to keep our game alive."

[23:49] Gander says, "As far as the hierarchy of things to be pissed about, a smash seems about the last thing."

[23:49] Gander says, "Look, we all know you can walk around and say I HAVENO MONEY HELP ME."

[23:49] Smavandree says, "I got smashed on my necro when I came back, I was like whoops... I'm not playing Guild wars anymore."

[23:49] Gander says, "And someone will throw some at you."

[23:49] Sendithu says, "I ringed someone today to discuss their OOC on the gweths and they stopped. No smashing. Usually I ring them and they go crazy and double down on the crazy though."

[23:49] Benediction says, "Smashing ends communication, in many ways its worse than death."

[23:50] Naohhi says, "It seemed appropriate."

[23:50] Isharon says, "On the issue of smashing for OOC: I used to try the softer approach (crystal ring, AIM, etc.) all the time. Not only did people not appreciate that sort of feedback, but more often than not, they became defensive and actually doubled down on the OOC behavior, repeating it and making passive-aggressive remarks about those who have a problem with it."

[23:50] Keroo says, "Say i like the bag of salt."

[23:50] Smavandree asks, "Can that salt be used for alchemy?"

[23:50] Sendithu says to Samsaren, "That's it, we're fighting."

[23:50] Naohhi says, "Idk maybe."

[23:50] Isharon says, "But honestly, I wish players didn't feel like policing the gweths for OOC had been delegated to them. Let it be a purely IC tool."

[23:50] Sendithu says to Samsaren, "Gweth something so I can smash you."

[23:50] Keroo exclaims, "Woo!"

[23:50] Smavandree exclaims, "Oh how come he gets a cookie? You better have brought enough for everyone!"

[23:50] Samsaren says to Sendithu, "That didn't end super well for me last go."

[23:51] Naohhi says to Smavandree, "I'm working on a gift for everyone here actually."

[23:51] Gander says, "To be honest."

[23:51] Gander says, "Anyone ive ever smashed, ever."

[23:51] Gander says, "If they were 'open'."

[23:51] Gander says, "Id have just gone and silenced them another say."

[23:51] Benediction says, "It's funny how everyone comes together to share their opinion and each of us ends all the more certain our own is the right one."

[23:51] Gander says, "So telling me that smashing is worse than death, that doesnt sway me one way or the other."

[23:51] Keroo says, "Dont wanna be smashed? then dont engage in banter."

[23:51] Tomakok exclaims to Gander, "How manly!"

[23:51] Naohhi says, "Btw: Stream watchers, you'll be able to score a gift as well. It'll be available in Crossing."

[23:51] Isharon says, "I guess it depends on what you enjoy most."

[23:51] Gander says, "My ego is uuuuuuuge."

[23:52] Mhisra asks, "Is the gift a pvp death?"

[23:52] Navesi asks, "We're getting a gift?"

[23:52] Tomakok asks Gander, "And not many other things, huh?"

[23:52] Lasika asks Gander, "As big as Woten's bundles?"

[23:52] Smavandree says, "At least it's not Yuuuuuge."

[23:52] Azettie says, "Only thing I am certain of is I want to play I want to have fun and I want to be a bad guy so if I have to have a conversasion between 3 of my own characters to RP I am gonna do it."

[23:52] Smavandree asks, "Is it as big as Ghina?"

[23:52] Persida asks, "We can refrain from insulting each other here, right?"

[23:52] Gander says to Smavandree, "That's what I was going for."

[23:52] Gander says, "Sarcasm, or whatever."

[23:52] Smavandree says, "I think we moved on to insulting Trump now..."

[23:53] Azettie says, "I can't get sunshine in a bag or moonbeams in a jar I am gonna cause my self problems or my otherself just to have a good time."

[23:53] Smavandree says, "Is that door made of glass or something? A lot of people are walking into it instead of through the doorway..."

[23:54] Persida says, "GM offices are strange places."

[23:55] Litrel says, "Here is a general thought for those GM's here that may help shed light on this, given the current attempt to bring back players."

[23:55] Litrel says, "Why not ask them when they return what made them leave."

[23:55] Azettie says, "Oh and I wanted you all to know because we are in an ooc place thank you to those who told my trader how to kick me out of her shop but we were after a little more action. And because this is an ooc even I expect you all to forget that."

[23:55] Gander says, "That's easy."

[23:55] Gander says, "GMs, most of the time."

[23:55] Gander says, "For me at least."

[23:56] Litrel says, "If thats the case, we are in a lost world."

[23:56] Smavandree says, "Btw, at least some of the twitch discussion should be available on the video when I put it together Nahoii. I didn't have it visible on the stream the whole time. I think I got it added about 1/4 of the way through."

[23:56] Litrel says, "Or maybe not if there is change."

[23:56] Persida says, "We actually do ask that when people leave. Asking upon return would be interesting,."

[23:56] Naohhi says, "I'd like to respond to that."

[23:56] Litrel says, "Asking when they leave is a quick response.. Ive left. I didnt care to tell you why."

[23:56] Azettie says to Naohhi, "You are chosen from the list."

[23:56] Litrel says, "Ask now. maybe get a different answer."

[23:57] Smavandree says, "First time I left was I was acting like a giant ass of a child and needed to grow... 2nd time I left was my deployment to Iraq... 3rd time I left was work, and life just got too hectic."

[23:57] Naohhi says, "Sometimes, we don't get to find out why. Other times, people post. When we can, we absolutely do ask. We want to know, but we can't force you into an exit interview. Upon return, lots of times we don't even know you're a returnee unless you mention it. I've had a LOT of assists from returnees and usually their comment is: wow, I didn't expect to get help. or something along that vein."

[23:57] Lyneya says, "Ok, I've got the basics typed up."

[23:57] Naohhi says, "So I'd say a lot of the reason, on my own experience and assumption, is culture change in staff and player relations."

[23:58] Naohhi says, "But, I cannot speak for every one that has walked away."

[23:58] Naohhi says, "And again, that's just an assumption."

[23:58] Lyneya says, "Tap lyn."

[23:58] Lyneya says, "I must need more rum."

[23:59] Persida exclaims, "I need more sleep, but so much stuff to do!"

[23:59] Lyneya says, "Ok. I've typed up a wall of text for you."

[23:59] Lyneya asks, "So, what if we did as one suggested (and as we've been tossing around behind the scenes for some time now)? Let's suppose we change policy to this: If you impact another character in any way (healing, injuring, buffing, debuffing, cursing, stunning, sleeping, anything at all that impacts the ones and zeroes of another person) then you must first obtain consent or have their permission to engage?"

[23:59] Lyneya says, "If we moved with this change, we'd add some mechanics to the WARN and CHALLENGE verbs to automatically log some more information (including speech) for both parties after one of those commands were used."

[23:59] Lyneya says, "Obtaining consent would still work the same way. If someone runs their mouth, you could shoot them a WARN COMBAT and then say, "If you don't stop I'm going to kill you!" Well, that gives them a clear chance to step up or back off. If they accept, game on. If they decline, they need to back off. If they decline and say, "Good luck, I'm closed, you can't do crap to me!" and continue with the behavior you warned them about, well.. like now, this would also be game on."

[00:00] Lyneya says, "It'd require people to communicate before coming to blows, and it'd give the GMS a clear, concise, and NO GREY AREA policy that could be evenly enforced. Did PlayerA do a thing? Yes. Did they WARN first? No -- Well, that's against policy. Yes -- What did PlayerB do when they received the WARN? Did they keep it up or back off? If they kept it up, well tough noogies dude. You were warned. I would not even have to call upon PlayerA. If they backed off as suggested by the WARN? Well, then we enter the traditional consult."

[00:01] Lyneya says, "I'm just throwing this out. I'd like to hear what you all think."

[00:01] Sendithu is chosen from the list.

[00:01] Sendithu says, "As long as gweths are being logged as well as regular conversation."

[00:02] Sendithu says, "Gweths, rings, bird charms, all that."

[00:02] Lyneya says, "Yup, all of that would be tracked for a brief period of time."

[00:02] Sendithu says, "I'd also suggest not telling people how long the logging time is."

[00:02] Sendithu says, "That's all."

[00:02] Isharon is chosen from the list.

[00:03] Isharon says, "How would requiring consent work with beneficial actions? I could see some potential issues with healing in triage or when the person is about to die. But otherwise, I am generally in support of making the rules clearer on both sides so that people can avoid unwanted consequences and warnings."

[00:03] Isharon says, "Done."

[00:03] Lyneya says, "You'd have to actually talk to people before you put your hands on them."

[00:03] Lyneya says, "Or spells."

[00:04] Lyneya says, "Instead of casting a random buff on the guy trying to get across the river, you'd have to say "Hey! Looks like you're having trouble! Want a buff?" Heck, maybe you'll make a new friend."

[00:04] Lyneya asks, "Instead of walking through a hunting area healing everyone you pass, you'd have to actually speak to them. Hi! I'm an Empath! Would you care for some healing?"

[00:05] Lyneya says, "It would require peopel to interact with each other more, for sure."

[00:05] Isharon says, "Ew, talking to people."

[00:05] Isharon says, "Just kidding, I am kind of amused."

[00:06] Lyneya asks, "Does that answer your question?"

[00:06] Lyneya asks, "Any follow up, or done?"

[00:07] Isharon says, "I am done."

[00:07] Keroo is chosen from the list.

[00:07] Keroo says, "I think thats a great idea, a log after a warn would be very help and deter people from false reporting, furthermore requrieng consent before they do ANTTHING to your charater would also help from people in general being abused as such was said early, for bob, i can ice slick bob and he cant do anythign abck but if he does i can go to town, haveing them require consent before they can do that is a great idea, i encourge that acuatl conversations must take place and consent to do such actions., there is a little hole in it...and that would be afk scripters, but thats a whole diffrent can of worms."

[00:07] Keroo says, "Done."

[00:07] Lyneya says, "Thank you."

[00:08] Gander is chosen from the list.

[00:08] Gander says, "Hate the concept on the grounds of having to warn (figuratively and literally) people of impending doom. It removes the organic nature of conflict and advises the other person just before my actions, so they can say, pause and buff while they decline - if nothing else. I think verbal warnings from onecharacter to another is sufficient, in conversation and context, if nothing else - but even that is too far sometimes. If the situation is squishy and not blatant - you throw out a verbal warning to them. Warn mechanics seem silly to me in general though."

[00:08] Gander says, "As far as removing the deliniation between beneficial and harming."

[00:08] Gander says, "That's fine."

[00:08] Gander says, "All ive got this time."

[00:08] Lyneya says, "And if you go without the warn, you end up in a traditional consult. You lose the "cover your ass" that WARN will provide, allowing us to not interrupt your evening for a frivolous report."

[00:09] Gander says, "But if you reviewed the situation."

[00:09] Gander says, "And saw back and forth."

[00:09] Gander says, "Where someone said "Keep talking like that, i'll get ya'."

[00:09] Gander asks, "That's not the same and sufficient?"

[00:09] Gander says, "Or more directly, i'll kill you for that, I guess."

[00:09] Lyneya asks, "The back and forth only gets recorded upon usage of one of those commands. We can't literally record everything every player says, you have any idea how slow this game would run?"

[00:10] Gander says, "Then no, hate the idea."

[00:10] Gander says, "I'm sorry, but that's completely unorganicand it those warnings just tend to piss me off."

[00:10] Gander says, "A second ago it was hey, talk more, and now it's more along the 'use mechanics' line."

[00:11] Gander says, "I'm tired of mechanics to babyproof everything, more messaging warning people that they're ACTUALLY DEPARTING or whatever - it's all babyproofing to me."

[00:11] Lyneya says, "Thank you for your input."

[00:11] Gander says, "People need to be responsible for what they do and say, if they didnt say anything it's unconsented as it is."

[00:11] Lyneya asks, "Anything else to add before I move on?"

[00:12] Gander says, "Nope."

[00:12] Lyneya says, "I dont want to cut you off."

[00:12] Litrel is chosen from the list.

[00:12] Litrel says, "Only because I dont have much time left to stay, but think the point needs to be made. I think, since you are giving away free premie for 60 days to returning players, why not try to identify who they are and get the infroation. I think you may find, and I could be wrong, the would be open since they have had some time away from DR to openly talk about the issues they felt important. Not exactly inline with tonights theme, but some of it may be."

[00:12] Litrel says, "Sorry, but didnt want to lose the conversation that was being had when you froze the room."

[00:13] Lyneya says, "I appreciate that, thank you for your input."

[00:13] Persida says, "What Naohhi was trying to say earlier is that in-game staff aren't alerted in any way when someone re-subs."

[00:13] Litrel says, "Perhaps that should be reviewed then."

[00:13] Lyneya says, "Perhaps."

[00:13] Persida says, "We literally have no way of knowing unless someone volunteers and reaches out to us."

[00:13] Litrel says, "Or you get told."

[00:14] Litrel says, "It may open up some new areas of concern and allow DR to grow again.. just my thought."

[00:14] Litrel says, "That is all I had."

[00:14] Persida says, "Oh I totally get what you're saying. We just don't have any way to get that info at this time."

[00:14] Lyneya says, "We've had 23 resubs since I emailed the promo yesterday."

[00:14] Litrel says, "It appears you do."

[00:15] Persida says, "I'm speaking as in-game staff."

[00:15] Lyneya says, "She doesn't, I do. I'm not a GM, I'm the PM."

[00:15] Litrel says, "Understand, but there is a way for them to get the info."

[00:15] Litrel says, "Its just something to consider."

[00:15] Lyneya says, "I appreciate your comments."

[00:16] Litrel says, "I am good."

[00:16] Lasika is chosen from the list.

[00:17] Lasika says, "About the healing thing: Empaths can sense when someone is dying, but by the time that happens, there's little time for pleasantries. It's either take their vitality fast or they die. Or if someone is dying in shock, they can't respond to grant consent, unless it's a verb that is usable when stunned and dead. Would consent be ignored if the empath chooses to save their life, in any of those situations? Or perhaps an additional rule in invasion triage, when there is so much going on that communication is almost impossible, so by being there you're basically consenting to any and all help from empaths? I know some people hate that idea, but... its war, at that point. You can get your bleeder back later, right? It's not like real life where if someone untrained pulls you from a wreck and paralyzes you for life, you get to sue them for helping."

[00:17] Lasika says, "I'd suggest more toggles and flags, if such a system is put into place. The ability to grant consent to any empath or cleric for raising. Kind of different levels of opting in or out of different interactions, to ease things along when there's no time for conversation."

[00:17] Lasika says, "And I ran out of time to expand on that idea but you get what I'm suggesting, I hope."

[00:18] Lyneya says, "Definitely would be more complicated in that situation."

[00:19] Benediction is chosen from the list.

[00:20] Benediction says, "Take a journey with me, back when I used to play in Ratha there used to be a moon mage that would open a gate on the green, and it would unleash a tidal wave into the room and knock everyone down. It was his way of sorta livening up the place and I guess script checking people into waking up, harmlessly. It was a fun organic prank that lead into more mischief. I'm afraid those new policies would hinder that from ever happening again and thats why I would be afraid of their implimentation. Role play needs everyone to have free will otherwise you lose that sense of free will spontaneity that makes it so fun, diminishing safe spaces (god I hate that term) not increasing them."

[00:20] Lyneya says, "Well, that doesn't imact a character's numbers right? It simply makes them prone."

[00:20] Benediction says, "If a system like that were put in effect my fear is it would be those that were trying to entice some sort of interaction that would pay the price, people just trying to have fun not badger. Thats all thanks."

[00:21] Lyneya says, "Thank you."

[00:21] Navesi is chosen from the list.

[00:21] Navesi says, "Hello again."

[00:21] Lyneya says, "Hi."

[00:22] Navesi says, "I think I tentatively like this proposed solution, Lyneya. However, I would want to add in a few clarifying lines to help people learn it. Making the system crystal clear would mean less confusion and hopefully fewer assists."

[00:22] Navesi says, "For example: Lyneya just cast a spell on you (or whatever)! [You now have consent to attack Lyneya.]."

[00:22] Navesi says, "Or >check Lyneya. You have consent on Lyneya for the next 13 minutes."

[00:22] Navesi says, "Also I agree with making toggles. Allow people to consent all healing, consent all tending, consent all Augmentation, Warding, and Utility spells, etc. I DO want to talk to people more but I think that having to manually consent to everything would be a lot of work."

[00:22] Navesi asks, "Finally, I'm curious about what this would mean for HLCs picking on lower level characters. They could grant consent all day long without fear of any consequences. Would it mean that if the lowbie is Closed/Guarded, the HLC simply wouldn't be allowed to take those actions at all against them?"

[00:24] Lyneya says, "Those sorts of additions would be great. I can't say that it'd happen any time soon, as development resources are fairly thin right now."

[00:24] Lyneya says, "Don't make it something it isn't though -- Of course, it would never be an issue between friends, because your friends aren't going to do things to you that you wouldn't want."

[00:25] Lyneya says, "And you're not going to REPORT them for casting courage on you."

[00:27] Lyneya says, "For the average player, it would change nothing in their behavior except to add one last "are you REALLY sure?" check before they engage another character. (and of course, OPEN would still be OPEN) It wouldn't change anyone's actual IC behavior, it might just slow it up half a minute."

[00:27] Navesi says, "Well I'm definitely curious to see where you guys go with it."

[00:27] Lyneya says, "I feel like the only people something like this would hamper negatively are the ones who are out to make another person's experience miserable."

[00:28] Lyneya says, "But, it's an idea and I want feedback. That's why we're here."

[00:28] Lyneya asks, "Anything else to add?"

[00:28] Navesi says, "No, that's it."

[00:28] Naohhi is chosen from the list.

[00:28] Naohhi asks, "Terramotus : For Lyneya, would there be options to set flags automatically consenting to certain things? Could we whitelist certain people?"

[00:29] Lyneya says, "You certainly could have an understanding with people. I don't know about flags, I don't know I have the resources for that. You could use the fields on your profile, for example, to state what's always ok with you."

[00:30] Lyneya asks, "I mean, your whitelist would be yours. That means you're not going to REPORT those people. Who needs to know, besides you and them?"

[00:30] Naohhi says, "Waiting to see if Terramotus has a response."

[00:31] Naohhi says, "No response currently. Second proxy topic.."

[00:31] Naohhi says, "Caledric: Comment on Lasika's Comment Naohhi... Perhaps FA should be reviewed so keeping pet bleeders aren't the best way to go anymore? Maybe anatomy charts can teach better. Or more ways to learn FA could be introduced."

[00:31] Lyneya says, "Maybe, but that's not really a part of this discussion."

[00:31] Naohhi says, "Proxy is done."

[00:32] Lyneya says, "Thank you."

[00:32] Isharon is chosen from the list.

[00:32] Isharon says, "Are we talking warnings for CAST AREA (with Courage) without getting get consent from everyone in the room? Or does the spell just not affect them? (It looks like Isharon is trying to cast Courage. Type ACCEPT SPELL in the next 15 seconds to join in.)."

[00:33] Lyneya asks, "Well, this idea is in its infancy. I'd think, in an invasion setting, you could say "ABOUT TO CAST COURAGE! MOVE WEST FOR A MINUTE IF YOU DONT WANT IT!" should be sufficient?"

[00:33] Isharon says to Lyneya, "I don't know, that sounds kind of ... unnecessary with all the other stuff I might be trying to focus on during an invasion."

[00:34] Isharon says to Lyneya, "It might be better to limit the consent stuff to clearly detrimental actions instead of basically getting people to sign waivers before you can interact with them in any way that conceivably touches on game mechanics. Just my two cents as a role-player."

[00:36] Isharon says to Lyneya, "You don't want role-play to be too much of a hassle, or people just go script in a corner."

[00:36] Lyneya says, "I think that phrasing it in the context of "getting people to sign waivers" is a bit of an overreaction when I'm simply proposing that you all treat each other with common courtesy and communicate before you impact someone else's character, but just my two cents as a human being."

[00:37] Isharon asks Lyneya, "That sounds fine, but why make lack of mere courtesy a warnable offense, if that's what this policy would do?"

[00:38] Isharon asks Lyneya, "Do you guys really want to field 'Samsaren cast Courage on the room without asking' reports?"

[00:39] Isharon says, "Requiring consent for beneficial actions just seems like something that gives policy players more tools."

[00:40] Isharon says, "Not that I don't get where you're coming from."

[00:40] Lyneya says, "It'd have to be all of nothing for it to work, or we're right back in the grey area. I don't think that asking people to communicate before they impact someone else is too much, but I accept that I may be in the minority. That's why we're talking about it rather than reading a policy change announcement."

[00:41] Isharon says, "I think I am pretty considerate as far as players go, but I am thinking about practical situations in invasions or triage where time and typing are at a premium."

[00:41] Isharon says, "It feels like it's bubble-wrapping a lot of interactions that don't really need that when the real things people complain about are PvP and getting warned for PvP."

[00:42] Isharon says, "That is all I have to say on this point."

[00:43] Lyneya says, "Thank you for your input."

[00:43] Padhg is chosen from the list.

[00:43] Padhg says, "To the point Isharon just made, in that specific case just ask people to join your group for courage as you do now."

[00:44] Padhg says, "In addition, maybe roleplaying tools like a sign that says "WARNING! I'm an old codger so leave unles you want healing."

[00:45] Padhg says, "I think that's all, I do feel the new policy has fewer holes than the current."

[00:45] Padhg says, "So I support it."

[00:45] Lyneya says, "Thank you for your input."

[00:45] Naohhi is chosen from the list.

[00:46] Naohhi asks, "Riverlynn from Twitter: I have a question about this policy that Lyneya is there penalties for someone who acts without warning even when there is clear consent? Must you WARN first? Or is clear consent still a thing?"

[00:46] Naohhi says, "She asked 38 minutes ago. I missed it until now, sorry."

[00:48] Lyneya says, "Clear consent is definitely a thing. If you have consent, you have consent and that wouldn't change. If you don't take the time to use the WARN verb, then it's possible we might come ask you what happened -- but if you had consent, then we'd just say thank you for the information and send you on your way."

[00:49] Naohhi says, "Proxy done for now. I don't believe she is actively watching her DMs on Twitter to send a response."

[00:49] Lyneya says, "Ok. No one else on the list either."

[00:50] Lyneya says, "I thank you all, each and every one of you, for sticking with me so long tonight. We've talked and talked and shared a lot of ideas and perspectives, and I appreciate your taking the time to share yur views with me."

[00:50] Lyneya says, "I just wante dto say that before it gets noisy."

[00:50] Lyneya says, "I'm going to unhush, take a five minute break, and then come back to chat for a few minutes before I take off for the night."

[00:51] Persida exclaims, "She's just trying to make me give up and go to bed before she does!"

[00:51] Navesi says, "Thank you again for inviting us and being willing to discuss and hear us."

[00:51] Padhg asks, "Did no one else make use of the two wooden chairs?"

[00:51] Persida says, "I've been DRing since 6am my time. It's 1am now."

[00:51] Keroo asks, "Chairs?"

[00:52] Persida says, "I will not break. I will not bend."

[00:52] Lasika says, "I'm a bit sad that the idea of flags and toggles would be so hard to impliment. I wanted to say, it would be nice to be able to add people to more lists."

[00:52] Naohhi says, "Omg it is 1am."

[00:52] Persida says, "Yeah."

[00:52] Naohhi says, "The BF is going to bed. The dogs are staring at me waiting for bedtime treat."

[00:52] Isharon says, "I just see this idea, as it is currently proposed, as adding a whole new level of policy play and potential for GM consults when that is something I think we all agree should be reduced."

[00:52] Persida says to Lasika, "It's more that we're stretched really, really thin right now and we have a ton of super high priority things to do."

[00:53] Lasika says, "Get players to help where we can! Like that idea for a list of everything that causes consent."

[00:53] Smavandree says, "Yeah, the stream may have to end soon. I'll be getting a text from the wife any minute telling me to come to bed."

[00:53] Isharon says, "Though in general, I do like making the rules more black-and-white."

[00:53] Lasika says, "Everyone can think of all the abilities from their guilds, get that list set up for you to add and take off stuff."

[00:53] Lyneya says to Persida, "I slept til noon. I have hours left in me."

[00:53] Keroo says, "Less grey is good."

[00:54] Keroo says, "Its the grey area that causeing trouble."

[00:54] Persida says, "My husband has actually been asleep then awake again three times in the span of time I've been working on DR today."

[00:54] Persida says, "Or yesterday. Or whatever day it is now."

[00:54] Persida says, "Asleep three times and awake again two."

[00:54] Persida says, "He's asleep now."

[00:54] Lasika says, "I have trouble wrapping my head around the proposed system, and I know my friend is scared that people will be even ruder when going for healing. But we're both willing to give it a shot before quitting in disgust. It's a change, and any change is good at the moment."

[00:55] Lasika says, "Hopefully they will be less ruder."

[00:56] Keroo says, "I dont think well.. i mean if somone wants to play pocliy they will report for benfical spells....or attack said person the instant it happens....thata cuattly seems a easy VEERY easy wat to pvp bait now that i think about it."

[00:56] Lyneya says, "It might result in more assists, Isharon. That's true. But with such clear rules, it would virtually eliminate the need to bother a potential aggressor. I could open up the logs and clearly see this happened or that happened and (hopefylly) see that the other party followed the rule and won't even have to talk to them."

[00:56] Isharon says, "Navesi is defending during invasion. I go into his room. He, thinking he is just among friends, area-casts an AoE buff without warning the room in advance. >REPORT Navesi just cast Blessing of the Fae on me without warning everyone."

[00:56] Isharon says, "Logging is good."

[00:56] Keroo says, "Walk into a courge, kill the paladin."

[00:56] Isharon says, "Making the rules clear is good."

[00:56] Lyneya says, "So instead of a one hour consult, I have a ten minute assist."

[00:57] Navesi asks, "Am I a he now?"

[00:57] Isharon says, "But instead of one one-hour consult, you mgiht have 30 10-minute assists of that nature."

[00:57] Keroo says, "Like thats a really easy way to bait consent if its just get hit with a benefical spell."

[00:57] Persida says to Navesi, "At this hour, all bets are off."

[00:57] Lyneya says, "I expect there would be more action as people learned what is ok and what isnt."

[00:58] Keroo says, "Griefing could get worse."

[00:58] Lasika says, "But after that, it would be easier to sort out the troublemakers and tan their hides."

[00:58] Isharon says, "I am just not sure that a lot of the proposed interactions really NEED this level of GM oversight."

[00:58] Isharon says, "When we know already which interactions people complain about the most."

[00:58] Keroo says, "Which i8s negative."

[00:58] Keroo says, "Enver postive."

[00:58] Keroo says, "Never even."

[00:58] Padhg says, "However, we're also talking about edge cases."

[00:59] Isharon says, "Healing, people sometimes complain about that, but that is generally because they have other plans for those wounds. And there is a tool to avoid healing."

[01:00] Padhg says, "And if they walk into triage during an invasion, they should know they are consenting to be healed since that is the designated area for so."

[01:00] Keroo says, "Demeanor ect."

[01:00] Lasika exclaims to Naohhi, "Why could I do that with my fingers but not my tail!"

[01:00] Lasika asks, "Do you know where my fingers have been?"

[01:00] Isharon says, "It just seems like if you want to discourage people from reporting nonsense and wasting GM time, requiring warnings/consent for even beneficial interactions is not the way to go, IMO. It may also run the risk of making RP less spontaneous and organic."

[01:01] Isharon says, "Again, for actual PvP combat, fine. Warn away."

[01:01] Keroo says, "But listing buffs and heals as a form of consent opens a new form of griefing competely, mind you they would be within polciy to act on such if it did indeed grant consent."

[01:02] Padhg says, "Area casting is still the only time that would apply, however."

[01:02] Keroo says, "Pretty much."

[01:02] Isharon asks Keroo, "Are we talking about just giving consent to another player or actually being a warnable offense?"

[01:03] Keroo says, "Granting consent."

[01:03] Isharon says to Padhg, "Never underestimate the ability of policy players to come up with creative methods."

[01:03] Isharon says, "*Cough* spousal consent *cough*."

[01:03] Padhg says to Isharon, "The way I understood it, you area cast, they WARN you not to do it again, you area cast again, they can kill you."

[01:03] Persida says to Lyneya, "Okay fine, you win. I can't even see straight anymore."

[01:04] Isharon says to Padhg, "I'm less opposed to it when worded like that, but I am still wary of adding beneficial actions to consent policy when beneficial actions aren't what causes problems."

[01:04] Keroo says, "But necro golem bombs into rooms with guarded and closed people, need to stop."

[01:04] Persida says, "Thank you all for coming and talking, and staying! I know Lyneya said it already, but still."

[01:04] Lyneya says, "As I said, it needs to be all or nothing, or we just end up in grey area again."

[01:05] Padhg says to Isharon, "Perhaps it could be said as such in the policy."

[01:05] Isharon says to Padhg, "Worded the way you worded it, it's no different from what we already have, which is I can WARN COMBAT you if you keep doing whatever you're doing to me."

[01:05] Lyneya says, "Padhg, I must correct your understanding."

[01:06] Isharon says to Lyneya, "I think it's possible to shrink the grey area on a case-by-case basis (as new issues arise) without going overboard with consent being needed for anything that has some mechanical effect."

[01:06] Lyneya says, "Before you CAST AREA, you should say "CASTING COURAGE! HEAD WEST IF YOU DON'T WANT IN!" or something of that nature. Give me an opportunity to move if I don't want to be effected by your spell."

[01:06] Isharon says, "Right now, GMs generally don't want to talk about the grey area, which keeps it nice and grey for policy players."

[01:07] Smavandree says, "It got quiet..."

[01:07] Isharon says, "As a normal player, I don't find myself in the grey area. I sometimes have to wonder what people are doing where this is a regular concern for them."

[01:07] Isharon says, "Things normally seem pretty clear on my end. Harm = consent. Attempt to harm = consent. Provoke + warn = consent."

[01:07] Naohhi says, "'BANANAS."

[01:07] Isharon asks, "I know, right?"

[01:08] Keroo says, "Thats pretty clear."

[01:08] Lyneya asks Padhg, "Do you think that's too burdensome of an expectation?"

[01:08] Navesi says, "Debilitation -- is it harm? RP kicking and slapping -- is it harm? I think it's a little bit more grey."

[01:08] Padhg says to Lyneya, "I do not at all. But I would also expect that as a closed player you would need to warn me as well in some capacity before aggressing."

[01:08] Naohhi asks, "Are there any DR and GS players still here with us?"

[01:08] Keroo says, "Thats the grey area."

[01:09] Smavandree asks, "You mean that play both?"

[01:09] Keroo says, "Ice patch, im not harming you."

[01:09] Padhg says to Lyneya, "I am perfectly fine with the I need to ask you before I do anything that changes your numbers."

[01:09] Keroo asks, "So no consent right?"

[01:09] Mhisra says, "I know of some who recently switched to GS."

[01:09] Lyneya says to Padhg, "Yes of course. That's where WARN COMBAT comes in, or maybe CHALLENGE."

[01:09] Smavandree says, "I gave up GS when DR came out... tried to play again about 5 years ago but just couldn't get into it again."

[01:09] Isharon says, "Harm also includes debilitating effects."

[01:09] Lasika says, "I was wondering about the kicking and punching, as RP verbs."

[01:09] Padhg says to Lyneya, "I think we're good."

[01:10] Lasika says, "They don't change numbers."

[01:10] Smavandree says, "The wife and baby must have fallen asleep... I haven't gotten a text yet."

[01:10] Isharon asks Lyneya, "I still want to know, though: if I, assuming I am among friends, cast an AoE spell, and I forget to say something this time, can someone potentially report me and get me warned?"

[01:10] Lyneya says, "When it comes to kicking and punching, you're right where we're at now. WARN LASIKA COMBAT. SAY TO LASIKA Lady, if you kick me one more damned time, I'ma take your face off."

[01:10] Smavandree says, "I'm sure I will as soon as the baby needs changed though."

[01:10] Keroo asks, "Dibilaiteing would not grant consent? cause it does not change numbers?"

[01:10] Lasika says, "Aha."

[01:10] Isharon says to Keroo, "Debilitating does."

[01:10] Lasika says, "That seems fair."

[01:11] Keroo asks, "Balance is numbers right?"

[01:11] Lyneya says, "Using the WARN verb gives you that "are you really REALLY sure you want to keep doing this?" chance, and adds logging information for the GMs to look at if it blows up."

[01:11] Padhg says, "Even your position, e.g. prone, is numbers."

[01:11] Smavandree says, "Let a necro cast heighten pain on you... that to me is definetly consent."

[01:12] Mhisra says, "It sounds like it's one of those things that just becomes 'I know consent when I see it.'."

[01:12] Keroo asks, "From my understanding, or am i wrong, if you forget to ask them and cast courage, they now have consent aginst you? right?"

[01:12] Smavandree says, "Sure it's harmless if you aren't hunting or fighting... but uh let something hit you with that on ya."

[01:12] Padhg says to Keroo, "Basically."

[01:12] Keroo says, "Eyah thats policy abuse right there."

[01:13] Isharon says, "I don't think that is really a good outcome, from a policy perspective, especially if warnings (the GM kind, not the warn command) are also a potential."

[01:13] Isharon says, "I think the reason I don't find myself in these situations is that I am generally acting in good faith and am usually interested in whether the other person is having fun."

[01:13] Keroo says, "Hey couraged me... i did not want it....gotta kill him now."

[01:13] Lasika says, "Some barbs are like that, though."

[01:13] Keroo says, "Yeah."

[01:13] Padhg says, "I don't usually go around casting spells on people unless (1) they ask or (2) there's a need, in which case you are required to check with them."

[01:13] Keroo says, "I never cast on somone, its rude."

[01:13] Isharon says, "Nor do I (for the most part), but think like a policy player."

[01:14] Isharon says, "If you don't anticipate their actions, they certainly will."

[01:14] Lyneya says to Isharon, "Assuming you're among friends -- I don't imagine your friends would REPORT you for something like that. They absolutely could, and when I came to talk to you about it you'd explain. This is no different than today, except that we'd be including all effects instead of just ones that break me."

[01:14] Keroo says, "If they hear ont he gweth, causeing courge or sotmhing come to so and so place."

[01:14] Keroo says, "There gunan come running to get that sweet sweet polciy abuse."

[01:14] Isharon asks, "But let's say someone walks into the room, and I miss that and CAST AREA without asking every time?"

[01:14] Keroo says, "Well the rpoblem is we gotta think about the people who are NOT our friends."

[01:14] Padhg says to Isharon, "With all your triggers, that's doubtful."

[01:14] Isharon says to Lyneya, "I think the current consent policy excludes beneficial actions for a good reason."

[01:15] Keroo says, "There the ones causeing the problems."

[01:15] Keroo says, "Not our friends."

[01:15] Isharon says, "There are enough people who fall into either 'I want to PvP with someone who doesn't want to PvP' and 'I don't want to PvP, but I want to behave in an antagonistic manner' that we keep ending up with PvP controversies. So it seems like we should really target those two situations without making it more difficult for everyone."

[01:15] Keroo says, "Pocliy is to protect us from the people intending to do ahrm, thats not our friends."

[01:15] Isharon says, "This proposal is a chainsaw when what we really need is a scalpel."

[01:15] Keroo says, "Harm."

[01:16] Mhisra says, "If I walk into a room where a bard has anything going, lilt, faenella, anything, it starts affecting me negatively (supposedly). I still don't think that should give me consent."

[01:16] Lasika says, "Bards, yeah... that's a tough one."

[01:16] Isharon says, "Consent policy, I think, has as an underlying premise some notion of how you can expect a reasonable person to react to your character's actions."

[01:17] Keroo says, "Right now direct harm is a cause for consent, i say just add dibilitateing affects into it, leave healing and benefitcal spells out of it, and yeah bards."

[01:17] Keroo says, "Oh god bards."

[01:17] Keroo says, "Thats like consent all over the place."

[01:17] Lasika says, "I know a few people who'd say that clingy song should be consent just from its messaging."

[01:17] Isharon says, "You see Consent Font Navesi, a Kaldaran Bard."

[01:17] Keroo says, "Consent should only apply to harmful effects, or ones that negativlt impact your state."

[01:18] Isharon says to Keroo, "Which is how it works now for the most part."

[01:18] Navesi says, "As a Bard, I would really like to be able to use my beneficial area spells without a whole lot of announcing, or worrying about people walking in."

[01:18] Mhisra says, "Intention should matter, I'd hope."

[01:18] Navesi says, "It is one of the primary ways I can help during invasions."

[01:18] Keroo says, "Currently, debils do not grant consent."

[01:18] Lyneya says, "They do grant consent."

[01:18] Keroo asks, "Oh?"

[01:18] Keroo says, "Well."

[01:19] Keroo says, "Somthing new i learned."

[01:19] Lyneya says, "It's complicated and grey and I hate it."

[01:19] Lasika asks, "Some do, some don't? Vertigo doesn't, but it's a debilitation spell?"

[01:19] Navesi says, "If you can't implement this plan mechanically without including the beneficial spells, then I'm not sure where we're at. But if you can, then I'd say at least consider it."

[01:19] Keroo exclaims, "Well no grey, all debils are now consent!"

[01:19] Lyneya says, "So, if I want to bait you, I can cast malediction at you."

[01:19] Lyneya says, "Now, I've given you consent."

[01:19] Whyt says, "Thanks for the discusion."

[01:20] Keroo says, "Yeah we dont want walking consent song areas around abrds..."

[01:20] Keroo says, "Bards."

[01:20] Lyneya says, "You can either suck it up and deal with the debil, or you can respond to my cast. If you do respond, you grant me consent in return. I can now pound you into the ground."

[01:20] Isharon says, "Consent baiting is normally trying to get consent from someone who doesn't want to PvP."

[01:20] Keroo says, "Yeah, but in open vs open thats find."

[01:20] Keroo asks, "Open still needs consent to hit a guartded and closed right?"

[01:20] Isharon says, "Yes."

[01:20] Lyneya says, "Open vs open is not the problem we're dealing with."

[01:20] Lasika says, "If bards are in an area first, then walking into their room should negate it. Or like, a 30 second window, as long as it takes to prep and cast, there should be some kind of grace period..."

[01:21] Keroo says, "Guarded and closed should also need to get consent to hit an open since they are not open."

[01:21] Lasika says, "They started to prep and cast - assuming triggers - just as you walked in, so give them time to take it down."

[01:21] Lyneya says, "Debuffs are considered non-damaging debil because they do not cause actual injury. So no, you don't need consent to cast it on someone who is closed."

[01:21] Isharon says, "And guarded/closed are identical from a consent policy perspective. They just express something about the player's preferences/intentions (I am OK with PvP/I try to avoid PvP at all costs)."

[01:21] Keroo says, "Yeah one issue is closed and guarded can attack open when ever they want."

[01:21] Keroo says, "That needs to change to they need consent unless they are also open."

[01:22] Navesi asks, "So to clarify. Under the new policy, would the Cleric even be mechanically able to cast Malediction on a Closed person?"

[01:22] Isharon says, "The other messy situation."

[01:22] Keroo says, "I mean closed should not swing first or at all."

[01:22] Keroo says, "Guarded is im ok to fight as long as we rp, ayt least thats how it loosk like it should have worked."

[01:22] Keroo says, "But... it did not."

[01:23] Lyneya says, "Mechanically? Yes. We're looking at policy, not mechanics. But it would no longer be ok to cast it on someone without first obtaining consent."

[01:23] Keroo says, "Its ill fight if i know ill win most of the time."

[01:23] Isharon says, "The other situation that results in consults is when people want to involve third parties. Consent may be clear between Bob and Jane, but what their friends may think they are in a grey area."

[01:23] Navesi says, "So we would now always know -- he cast a spell on me without my consent."

[01:23] Naohhi says, "Pendragonprice on twitch: Tell them that one problem that PVP open face, is being able to get gangbanged by a bunch of guardeds, without having help."

[01:23] Navesi asks, "And that would give the option of either retaliating or reporting him?"

[01:23] Isharon says, "I would still leave clearly beneficial effects out of it consent policy absent a WARN followed up by repeating the behavior. And I would not make that a GM warnable offense."

[01:24] Lyneya says, "Correct."

[01:24] Navesi says, "I agree with Isharon."

[01:24] Isharon says, "PvP open often wants to get their friends involved too."

[01:24] Keroo says, "I also agree."

[01:24] Smavandree says, "Remixthissaur : now I kind of want to watch porn."

[01:24] Isharon says, "Guarded/closed can technically do that, even though might be considered poor sport, but open cannot."

[01:25] Naohhi asks Smavandree, "Well, I mean. It's late, ok?"

[01:25] Isharon says, "People on both sides should be more willing to handle their own conflicts without calling on their homies to back them up."

[01:25] Keroo asks, "Thats whats guarded is intended for tho right?"

[01:25] Keroo asks, "Pvp but cant get jumped?"

[01:25] Smavandree says, "Remixthissaur : PROBABLY GOAT GIRAFFE PORN."

[01:25] Isharon says, "It shouldn't be, IMO, intended to let you bring in all of your friends."

[01:26] Lyneya says, "Well."

[01:27] Lyneya says, "In any event."

[01:27] Lyneya says, "A lot to think about."

[01:27] Lasika says, "Something Gander was saying is bouncing around in my mind, but I can't squeeze it into a coherent concept. Something about finding fun in PVP and death not having sting and so on."

[01:27] Keroo says, "I do not envy you gm staff."

[01:27] Lasika asks, "I guess I'm wondering, why does death have to have a sting, if the fun is in the fighting?"

[01:27] Lyneya says, "Again, and for the last time, I thank you all for your time tonight and your willingness to chat about the different possibilities, as well as your feelings and perspectives on them."

[01:27] Lyneya says, "Get out of my office now so I can go to bed."