elanthipedia:Town Green (policy)
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New users with strange names
Four new users have been created within the last week with similarly weird, code-like names:
Gj0Vxn, LyuZsg, TycZzv, and CpaPqe. Seems kind of fishy to me. Is it possible to run an IP check on them and/or otherwise see whether they're legit or not? None have performed any edits yet. --Farman 16:51, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
- If it becomes a problem we can utilize the captcha extension, and make new users enter a string. And/Or we can utilize SpamBlackList which protects us from malicious edits. --Callek 21:14, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
I noticed that too. We'll watch them.--Naeya (talk) 22:08, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
IG Secrets
I think it would be useful to state the policy on revealing in-game secrets in articles. Please correct me or add to this if I am wrong.
- Posting in-game secrets or solutions to quests is discouraged on a main article page, as this might reveal the information to someone who came to the article seeking general info only.
A good way to segregate info on secrets is to make a sub-page off the main article. --Farman 16:28, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
- How does one make a sub-page? --Kraelyst 18:04, 20 October 2007 (CDT)
- Yup, it's just like subfolders in Windows. Dummy Article would have a subpage Dummy Article/Secrets. The reason I'm bringing this up now is that I'm running across some articles written in the last month or two that include what look like quest walkthroughs. --Farman 13:28, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
- Okay, I agree with Farman's original idea for our policy and I think the solution for posting secrets as a subpage is good, though I do have one additional suggestion. Although it may be a hokey old web design trick, we could just make the secret text the same as the background color and that way the secret text could remain in its appropriate place in the article. Let's finish up this discussion and get this policy posted in our help section and wherever else it needs to be. --Kraelyst 05:32, 5 November 2007 (CST)
Posting Policy in general
Actually, I think it would be a good idea to draft a simple posting policy to cover a few basic things:
- secrets policy
- language/respect for fellow posters etc.
- opinion/commentary vs. facts (akin to wikipedia's NPOV?)
- copyrighted material
Any other thoughts? I'm hoping this can be something pretty simple and casual as opposed to a huge legal document, and have a prominent link on the main page. Growth has been slowing down a little here lately but I still think it would be useful to have a clear posting guideline while Elanthipedia is still relatively new. --Farman 13:28, 21 October 2007 (CDT)
Script articles
I think we need a guideline for how to post scripts.
The problem is that current practice seems to be to post the script with the article title equal to the script name. This can be confusing since there's nothing in the article title that indicates that it's a script, and the potential for conflicts with other article types exists, especially as more and more scripts get posted.
I can see a few ways to approach this, and I'm not sure which is best:
- Put script articles as sub-articles of the main Scripts page, eg "Scripts/AScript". My gut feeling on this is that it doesn't go far enough.
- Put scripts in User space under the author of the script, eg "User:Farman/Scripts/Empathy". The benefit here is that indication of authorship is preserved, however should an account be deleted the scripts would be lost.
- Make a new namespace Scripts eg "Scripts:Scriptname". I think this is the cleanest way to do it but most people will have a hard time searching in anything but the main space.
- Put (script) after the script title, eg "Script (script)". I don't think this is a good idea since it doesn't go far enough in segregating script articles, but it is an option.
- Keep all scripts off-site, and link to the external page. The most severe policy, but it has the benefit of preserving a script author's code, which would otherwise be subject to editing as any other wiki article.
Any thoughts? --Farman 14:29, 4 November 2007 (CST)
- Of those options my favorite by far is to add "(script)" to the article title. All the other ideas were good, but each of them also had a fatal flaw which was accurately described. I think the most important thing is that it be easy for people to post their scripts (and easy to find), so doing the subcategory, User namespace, or off-site are all out of the question. I vote "(script)" --Kraelyst 05:26, 5 November 2007 (CST)
- I guess allowing the upload of .cmd files would be out of the question too? I think that would be easiest, especial for script users. Being able to download the file instead of copy/paste and creating a new script... just the opinion of a tired empath taking another long walkabout from Elanthia.--Naeya (talk) 09:03, 5 November 2007 (CST)
- It may be unwise to allow people to upload .cmd files because if someone decides to add something malicious that we don't catch others might download it thinking that since it comes from Elanthipedia it must be safe. --Kraelyst 10:27, 5 November 2007 (CST)
Kraelyst, you raise a very good point, but there's nothing to stop someone from posting a malicious file right now (unless there is some kind of AV software running on the server, which would make a lot of sense). And it adds another reason to why I think we need to hash out all of our policies a bit more completely. Given the open collaboration nature of a wiki I would expect there to be something stating the owners and sysops aren't responsible for the content posted on the site, since it's impossible to police what people post, instantly and with 100% infallibility. Of course such malicious files should be removed as soon as they are detected, but that won't eliminate the possibility that someone could be victimized by it before that happens.
Anyway I've always felt a bit conflicted about scripts on Elanthipedia. It feels to me that they aren't really in the core mission of the site, since scripts aren't a part of DR itself. They're important though and I do think we should have them here if people want to post them, which it seems they do. But while you can assess the accuracy and completeness of an article about Vorclaf, or Khri, for example, you can't do the same for a script since they are entirely subjective and user-created. And there are unlimited variations possible for scripts that achieve the same essential end. That's why I'm hesitant to just stick (script) after the name, it's very possible to end up with 50 Origami (script) articles and who is to say which one is the best? Not to mention the fact that each one might run on a different FE and there'd be a need to organize them that way. Origami (script-SF), Origami (script-Wizard), Origami (script-Genie), etc etc etc.
The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards having them in the user space of the person who posts it, or keeping the code offsite. I know that the latter is what I would want to do for any of my own scripts I'd put here, to protect the code. --Farman 00:12, 6 November 2007 (CST)
Personal and vanity topics
If there is a discussion on this elsewhere or an already-existing policy by all means point me to it.
There should be a hardline policy on posting vanity pages and personal topics anywhere but in your own namespace. I just got finished moving two "proposal" pages with little to no bearing on actual game lore or mechanics into the creator's namespace, and it occurs to me that the more popular Elanthipedia gets the more stuff like this will pop up.
I also have concerns for adding vanity to pages. The biggest risk I think is pages on things like orders or militias; I don't think pages like this should turn into platforms from which to sell themselves. They should contain factual information about the orders, links to websites, and the names of the leaders, but not big sections on why they are the best or most awesome and why you should join now and get a free cookie.
That's pretty much it, was wondering what other people would think of that. Reene 15:43, 11 November 2007 (CST) (reposted from Elanthipedia Talk:Policy)
- I agree almost completely. On principle I think Elanthipedia's main article space should be NPOV and informational, with as little subjective content as possible. But I go back and forth about how hardcore to be in terms of enforcing policies like that. We are such a small site, with such a small number of registered users (and even tinier number of active editors), that being too strict about it could alienate some people. And if the community consensus is to include such content, then so be it (although I suspect this is not the case). On the other hand, it seems that many users here are new to wiki's in general and staking out policies like this would set a good example and a firm foundation for future growth. --Farman 11:57, 12 November 2007 (CST)
Ok I think we need to put something about this in our policy section. Let me know what you think of this...
All articles at Elanthipedia are to be written in the Neutral Point of View (NPOV). This means that they are written without any sort of bias or subjective language. In addition to this, articles about history, NPCs, and other "in-character" topics, should maintain an In-Character Point of View (ICPOV). That is, they should be written as if by a character in Elanthia, perhaps not necessarily "your" character, but keeping OOC (out-of-character) references to a minimum. If the article is to have any sort of out of game references, please insert a section titled OOC at the bottom of the article with these notes, or keep the discussion to the article's talk page.
By putting forth these style rules, we are committed to keeping an unbiased index of DragonRealms information which will be useful to all players. Any questions can be directed to the policy section of our Town Green.
Feel free to comment/add other statements you think will make our point clearer to the average contributor.--Naeya (talk) 18:38, 18 November 2007 (CST)
I actually don't agree with or else I don't understand the concept of having in-character articles. Does this mean people shouldn't use section tags like "Appearance" or "Conversation Responses"? For example, I just added a lot to the article Daralaendra Suanealaena and don't see how that could be made "in character" without making the information less organized and therefore less useful. --Kraelyst 20:49, 18 November 2007 (CST)
- I don't agree with the part about an ICPOV requirement for certain articles. NPOV means no character at all, that articles are written with as little "personality" as is possible, and I'd much prefer that. I shudder to consider reading articles written in a "tisnae" dialect or worse. And Kraelyst's example is a good one; this would limit the kinds of information we could add to these articles. I can imagine adding info relating to game mechanics and behind-the-scenes stuff, but I personally would find that interesting reading in an article about, say, the history of the Dragon Priests, providing the article were well written, researched, and organized.
- In any case, I don't think ICPOV is necessary to limit OOC info. For the kind of articles you're talking about, I don't think there's much OOC stuff to add. Anything such as commentary, opinion, predictions on future events, or the like wouldn't be NPOV in the first place and wouldn't be appropriate in a main article anyway. --Farman 22:01, 18 November 2007 (CST)
What is the DR Wiki? Issues concerning privacy, editing policy, and the boundary between IG/OOC
There is a really interesting discussion going on right now on the Talk:Natashya page regarding the inclusion of a player character's name in connection with a particular in-game event. I think it touches on a number of issues about the DR Wiki that haven't really been sorted out yet, but which I think merit serious discussion. I would highly recommend reading the linked page before continuing on...
Note: I don't have any connection to the event, player characters involved in the event, or Wiki users involved in the article about the event. Furthermore, I'm not particularly interested in the edits that have been made to the Natashya article. I am, however, very interested in how we think about and use the DR Wiki in a broad sense.
I think part of the reason why people might be sensitive to what is posted on the DR Wiki is because it is not clear how the information here will be used. Is the DR Wiki IG or OOC? The NPOV policy suggets OOC status, but much of what is here could be considered IG background information which characters can reasonably be expected to know. How should the DR Wiki be used? Furthermore, how is it actually used? My guess is that the answer to the latter question will trump the answer to the former.
Let's consider a few questions, moving from specific to general: if a player requests that their character's name not be mentioned on the Wiki, when should that request be honored? What reasons are legitimate for removing a player character's name? When is it legitimate to remove any sort of information from the Wiki?
Here are a few possible scenarios to consider:
- A player character was centrally and publicly involved in an event. The DR Wiki mentions the player character's involvement in the event. The player would prefer that the player character not be mentioned.
- Same as above, but the player character's involvement was not generally public. (Of course, where is the line between public and private? A substantial portion of the DR-playing community likely doesn't know who Lanival is, much less who did what in some event)
- A player character participates in an event and later adds information about that event to the DR Wiki. The GM involved requests that the information be removed because it is (part of a secret event/is part of a game secret, such as how to join the Thieves' guild/annoying).
- An article mentions a player character in a negative light. The player would prefer that this information be removed.
- An event (GM-run or otherwise) occurs about which there is substantial debate as to what actually happened. Players request the exclusion of particular information which does not support their interpretation of events.
I can imagine more scenarios, and I suspect others can imagine many more. As an encyclopedia, including information should be, as a general principle, a good thing. That said, however, there are cases where inclusion of particular information may not serve the goal of being a good encyclopedia. Currently, I don't know that there is any consensus on how these cases should be handled. I think talking about these scenarios (or others) can be useful, so long as we keep in mind that the goal of figuring out general rules for inclusion/exclusion of information from the DR Wiki. --Basselope 23:04, 29 November 2007 (CST)
- I'm not going to comment on all your scenarios right now, mostly because it's late and I'm not thinking as clearly as I could be. However, I would hope that Elanthipedia (or as you called it by its former name DRWik) would be used OOCly. Much like information gleaned on the forums or other such venues. Unless specifically stated, IMO, articles much like the Natashya article are for background and informative purposes only. Most of the information can (read: should) be available to all players if they care to look for it. In that vein, all RP should be available to all players if they care to try to join in on events. That brings me to a question... what exactly would you define as a "secret" event? We all pay to play this game, and no participation rights should be held from anyone if they put forth the effort to get to know the plot and RP with it. But I digress...
- I really would have liked to know the user's reasons for not wanting his/her name mentioned in the article you cited, besides just "not wanting" the name mentioned. It would have been nice, and would help in this discussion. Like I said on the talk page, I'm not familiar with the events enough to know the extent of their involvement. ... And now I've drawn a blank as to where I was going with this. Will post again tomorrow. --Naeya (talk) 23:31, 29 November 2007 (CST)
I am of the opinion that all information should be shared, as it isn't an IC venue. If people take it in game, well they're probably not worthy of your (general) time. I understand that some people may not want what their character is up to revealed, but having thought long and hard about it (since my character has been involved in shady dealings in the past) it is the truth, and as long as it was presented in as unbiased a way as possible I could deal with it. Clearly not everyone will feel this way, but I think in order to maintain the wikiness and usefulness of the Elanthipedia it should be that way. Perhaps disclaimers reminding people that the information is not IC and should probably not be taken as such? Editing this a bit, because I don't think I was clear. There are things that obviously, from here your character would and (likely should) know. History, general events. It's obviously up to each use to make the call on what they would conceivably know. I lost my train of thought with this, but I hope someone gets what I'm trying to say. --Ysselt 15:14, 30 November 2007 (CST)
As one of the people mentioned in the article I wish my name removed as well as all of the other player character names unless they specifically grant the author the right to include it. Part of roleplaying in DragonRealms as a darker, or even good guy, is hiding the morally gray and/or terrible things that you do. These actions effect the story and remain quiet, yet the main points are still available for Joe Bob from the wider pool of knowledge.
You've all cited that information pulled from non-game sources is OOC, but you have to realize the fallacy. All it takes is one person to mention something, then their friend knows it, and then their friends friends knows it. Suddenly everyone through in game sources has detailed information that originally was not available to the public and there is no turning this back. If this is going to turn into a freedom of information discussion in roleplay then so be it. I am of the opinion that those who seek something out get the information and involvement that they desire (at least with me) if they make an attempt. It comes down to those who I am not familiar with and that know the actions of my character fill me with a sense of privacy invasion.
Reading through the article, the first sentence under "The Triad" section aptly describes the acts of the individuals that Natashya associated with and conjures all of the standard stereotypes in my mind. Going beyond that and naming names does nothing to further the article except to make it more factually correct at the expense of those involved. --Maje 03:22, 1 December 2007 (CST)
As I explained to Naeya, part of my enjoyment from participating in events is how I choose to divulge my experience to others. I like having a sense of ownership over my character's actions, and how I choose to share information about her interactions OOCly. As this is the internet, there are obviously places in which I have no control over where information is posted about my character. However, the wiki format of Elanthipedia does allow me some control, and I choose to take advantage of it.
As far as the Natashya event is concerned, I find that Basselope accurately described my involvement: "A player character was centrally and publicly involved in an event ... but the player character's involvement was not generally public." Due to the nature of my character's profession and various affiliations, knowledge of her involvement with Natashya was limited to few, very specific individuals. There was no indication at the time of my involvement (nor during the article's authorship) that my actions in game would later be reproduced in an OOC format such as Elanthipedia. If I had known, perhaps I would have been more selective with whom I was sharing information.
Naeya wrote, "That brings me to a question... what exactly would you define as a "secret" event? We all pay to play this game, and no participation rights should be held from anyone if they put forth the effort to get to know the plot and RP with it." I agree, in general. However, knowing the plot OOCly does not equal knowing the plot ICly. Even with all the claims that this is an OOC forum, I am perhaps just too pessimistic to have such an outlook. If anything, this experience has taught me to be MORE wary of revealing information than actually sharing it.--Pythea 04:38, 1 December 2007 (CST)