Talk:Natashya

This article should probably be watched by someone, preferably an admin, for people going through it and deleting sections of content for no reason. I have (and am) spending a fair bit of time trying to compile an accurate history and telling of the event so a bit of help would be appreciated in the interests of accuracy. Reene 17:05, 29 November 2007 (CST)

This is a good article, thank you for putting it together, Reene. As for your concerns about violation, I think we need to reach a level of compromise here. If it was a matter of entire sections of the article being removed, that would be another matter. However, this is just one name, that of a player not a GM-controlled NPC. If a user would rather not have his or her character listed here, as the Natashya character and her story is viewed differently by different people, and they have asked not to have their name listed, I think that their wishes should be respected. The article can still be accurate with the omission of one player character name. Perhaps, instead of mentioning the name, you can say "amongst others" since it reads as if you were only listing a few of those characters involved. Having read the article as it stands at the time of my posting here, it really doesn't detract from the details of the article to have one name omitted.

BTW, None of my characters have any extended knowledge of this story line in game, so I'm rather unbiased in this matter. I don't know the exact nature of this person's involvement in the plot, or why they don't wish to have their name listed. I only know they've asked to have it removed, and my judgment on this matter is to leave the name omitted. Like I mentioned a few times, the article is very good, and to me is complete as is (unless you have other details to add, Reene).--Naeya ^(talk) 19:56, 29 November 2007 (CST)

I named the key players in the event, both past and present, which in this case is... everyone that I could think of. I think trying to tell the story without mentioning these key players and their impact is like trying to tell the Velmix story without mentioning Magmus, quite frankly. But you're the admin and I must defer to your judgment, which it seems is to compromise. Consider my next addition my compromise. Reene 20:21, 29 November 2007 (CST)

I think that is a good compromise, and will support it if the article is changed again. Thank you for understanding.--Naeya ^(talk) 20:29, 29 November 2007 (CST)

The above has been very interesting and, I think, suggests that we do not presently have a consensus on when/why information should be included/excluded from the DR Wiki. I've made an (overlong) post about this in Elanthipedia:Town Green (policy) that interested parties may wish to read and or comment on. --Basselope 23:06, 29 November 2007 (CST)

For accuracy's sake, my character was not a commissioned Ambassador at the time of her involvement with Natashya. I would really rather prefer the "amongst others" suggestion that Naeya made.

Also, there is some misinformation in the article. I was told that it was best to post on this page before editing, so I will do so, and then edit if it is not changed. "Natashya left a will to Ragad instructing him to carry out her last wishes and take on the mantle of her position within the Thieves' Guild." This is incorrect, as nowhere in Natashya's will did she instruct Ragad to take on her position within the Thief Guild hierarchy. -- Pythea

Ragad is an Enforcer in the same position Natashya was. He took Natashya's place after her death. I was told that these were among her last requests and instructions by Ragad himself, who has thus far not proven himself a liar. Reene 05:40, 1 December 2007 (CST)

I am referring specifically to the parchment will she left with Alrina. Perhaps the wording of your sentence can be adjusted if you are referring to oral instructions.--Pythea 06:40, 1 December 2007 (CST)

Quick suggestion so far as events are concerned. Happy to see more info on the pre/post Sorrow stuff, but maybe we should add approximate RL dates in as well, just for reference? Thoughts? --Ysselt 14:46, 3 December 2007 (CST)

First revision on Assassin portion of this article for factual references. Obviously still more to be added but my notes and logs are all over the place. The article as originally posted captures but a small biased portion of the events surrounding Natashya and does not do this event or the events team a service. --Pascheinw 15:24, 3 December 2007 (CST)

Please stop editing the disclaimer that states that the article is not accurate. The article intentionally omits the actions and participation of some important figures, even though that information is available. It is therefore not accurate. Readers should be informed of the inaccuracy, hence the note. --Mazrian 15:45, 3 December 2007 (CST)

Intentionally omitting anecdotal details does not make the existing details inaccurate, it simply makes the article incomplete. You are choosing to overlook the subtle difference, that is why I am editing the disclaimer. Excluding a name does not contradict the facts and progression of the storyline.

I have added a section entitled "The Enforcer" to more accurately describe the position of certain participants in the events relating to Natashya, an area which the prior version of the article was inadequate.--Pythea 18:26, 3 December 2007 (CST)

I will admit, I flipped my lid when I saw I was mentioned in this article without having shown the courtesy of being asked or told. It was very short-lived. I thought about it- This storyline is simply amazing. The complexities involved took a LOT of work by the GMs for this creation. I am PROUD of the work they have done. However, my temper was already short, and I got angry all over again. Yes, there were several errors that needed to be fixed. Negative connotation is rampant throughout the entire article. It could have been presented in a much more unbiased state. After a cool-down period of exactly two days, I went in and editted the paragraph I was mentioned in. I don't have the time for the whole article. There was absolutely no information deleted, and a small tidbit added. It was mostly reworded to improve how it sounded and fixed a few grammatical errors. --Rainea

Pythea, the people and details being omitted are not anecdotal. The wholesale exclusion of people from the account of events changes the account in a material way. We're not only talking about a name. --Mazrian 18:51, 3 December 2007 (CST)

Mazrian, if the omissions are not anecdotal, then add them instead of engaging in an edit war. --Basselope 19:00, 3 December 2007 (CST)

As I just posted, I enhanced the accuracy of the article with my submission of the section, "The Enforcer." I did not omit anything but the name of my character, a character which is not central to the plot of the Triad, despite your opinion.--Pythea 19:04, 3 December 2007 (CST)

I get that you don't want Pythea to be associated with this event for whatever reason, but we aren't just talking about you.

Basselope, I don't think I can add those details without sparking an even larger edit war. The more committed editors are going to win this one, and the wiki and its readers are the losers. Oh well. --Mazrian 19:12, 3 December 2007 (CST)

I completely re-did the warning message, feel free to edit for grammar. But please try to keep even that neutral as I have done. --Callek 19:27, 3 December 2007 (CST)

That seems like a decent compromise. I disagree that any participants in events that are public record have a privacy right, but alas. --Mazrian 19:39, 3 December 2007 (CST)

I am completely awful at Wiki editing since I am beyond still new to this - so please forgive any errors I make in this. I removed Rainea's name because it was very much the player's wish, yesterday, that it be removed. With the edits of this piece it may no longer be the case. However, I removed it as that was the last thing I was communicated. I have dropped her a message that if it was her intention to leave it - to please put it back or I will put it back for her. I have no intention of ever touching this article again beyond that. Sorry for confusion. --Ahnoui 21:37, 3 December 2007 (CST)

That is ok, but in the future I think it might probably be best for the player(s) involved to speak for themselves (to us) in this regard. The wiki accounts are free, and editing is fairly easy (as even you have found :-) ). But thank you for letting us know why. --Callek 21:47, 3 December 2007 (CST)

I'll start by stating quite plainly that I was involved in these events and with this NPC. The vast majority of what I wrote about were events that I was directly present for or heard about first hand from people that were. I had the help of multiple participants in the event when writing this article. I have consulted nearly everyone I mentioned in the article for information concerning the event and the history of the event as it relates to this NPC in the past.

In short, I do not speak from a position of pure ignorance. I do not write from pure hearsay. Is it possible I misremembered some detail of the article? Certainly - am a human being, a fallible mortal creature, and I make mistakes. Is it possible I was lied to or directly mislead by one of the participants for whatever reason? Yes, that is certainly possible, as there are some within the article that have a reputation for encouraging that sort of misdirection even among players. But what I wrote was correct to the best of my knowledge, and as unbiased as I could make it, despite bewildering claims to the contrary. My character is in there too after all, and linked to actions and crimes more damning than 90% of those named in the article. When I was compiling names, I did err on the side of including as many as I could recall to avoid claims of favoritism, mainly of people such as Rainea that had expressed a very strong interest and desire in being involved and had been proclaimed as being "in" by people like Ragad in the past. It's not a perfect article, it certainly doesn't include everything that it could, but it was what I felt was a good start at least, and worlds better than what we had before.

There seems to be some dispute over the actual importance of the PCs named, specifically Pythea and Majebrad. Well, Majebrad is who introduced me to this event in the first place and helped get me involved. His character had a very close personal relationship with Natashya. They were very explicitly lovers and did not often deign to hide this fact, at least not from people that were close to them. Majebrad acted as her bodyguard and often accompanied her where ever she went. As stated, he was present for and aided with the torture of Farsten along with one other PC (that was me, too). She called him 'arn fana' as stated and had told him she loved him, and this is still referenced in places in ongoing events. When she died, he directly received a gift of a medallion she'd had crafted for him from her body. While he is not a Thief, this was in no way strictly a Thief event considering the sheer scope of it all, and it included people from multiple guilds as prominent players, such as Paschein and myself. There is also the fact that Maje is one of the Triad, which are the three people that this event is currently revolving around. To say Maje did not and does not have a significant role in this event is disingenuous at best.

Pythea was not as involved as Maje, Paschein, or Ragad, but she was still very often present for things like meetings and made a habit of accompanying Alrina where ever she went as well, and considering the closely intertwined (and occasionally slightly creepy) nature of Alrina and Natashya's relationship I felt it was more than reasonable to mention her here in this article. I would honestly place Pythea's impact on the event up there with mine, and I don't think my place in the overall event (at least recently) was tiny. The Thief portion of the event was something Pythea was deeply involved in as well from my understanding, though I would leave others to speak more on that.

I am very glad to see some actual facts being added to the wiki instead of seeing things arbitrarily removed without explanation. I still feel that considering the bewildering fuss over this article that has managed to direct quite a lot of attention to it that there is quite a ways to go to make it more presentable. I hope to see more good contributions made and fewer petty edit wars. We're all after the same common goal here after all, right? Things get done faster if people work together. Reene 04:14, 4 December 2007 (CST)

Reene, you are completely missing the point in regards to my actions. Based on the content of the edits in the article and the talk page, you and Mazrian think I'm trying to pretend/cover up/"disavow" that my character wasn't involved. This is not the case. Just because I don't wish to lend my characters name to a specific event written about in Elanthipedia by you does not mean I'm denying I was ever involved, especially when I've been conspicuously posting information about the very same event in other forums.

Reene wrote, "I would honestly place Pythea's impact on the event up there with mine, and I don't think my place in the overall event (at least recently) was tiny." Hey, that's fine and dandy. However, you do not have ownership over my participation. That is your interpretation, and as I am responsible for my actions, I plan on adjusting written claims to my involvement (that I have not granted consent to) how I see fit.

On a side note: "made a habit of accompanying Alrina where ever she went as well" -- This is your interpretation, not the facts. I really think you need to work on your word choice when trying to be unbiased and neutral, as I am noticing a trend in complaints about your writing style.--Pythea 05:01, 4 December 2007 (CST)

Just so we're all clear, Pythea...do you think you should have editorial control over any article someone might write based on their own direct experiences and observations, just because it mentions you?--Mazrian 07:35, 4 December 2007 (CST)

I think this is a fair question that deserves an answer. And quite frankly, every claim of bias I've seen is just that...a claim without any explanation to back it up or suggestion to fix it, which leaves us all precisely where we started. Yes, I will be slightly more opinionated on the talk pages because that's what they are for. If you propose I exercise NPOV here as well I don't know what to tell you. Reene 12:34, 4 December 2007 (CST)

I'm leaving this for now "A short time before to her death, Natashya established a group of close companions that often aided her. Various tasks included serving as bodyguards, spying, acting as an informant, as well as events prior mentioned. Included among the group were former Court Advisor Paschein" but it's neither accurate nor complete in scope of Paschein's participation. --Pascheinw 12:07, 4 December 2007 (CST)

If the article is neither accurate nor complete, please provide constructive suggestions for improving the article. --Basselope 12:58, 4 December 2007 (CST)

Working on adding it, as I said further down, there's a lot of information that needs to be added here to do this story line justice. --Pascheinw 13:42, 4 December 2007 (CST)

-- Sorrow related timeframe, there were two contracts and several incidents that I am searching for details on to give a more complete picture of that time. If the player of Syia reads here, could she contact me, Syia's involvement was significant enough it's worth a mention.--Pascheinw 12:07, 4 December 2007 (CST)

-- Noblewoman blurb is not accurate, if you're looking to implicate Paschein in events, this is where it would have started. There are a number of things that relate to this time that will need to be added and corrected. --Pascheinw 12:07, 4 December 2007 (CST)

I wrote what I was told and could recall, and my knowledge of those specific events a long time ago was sporadic at best. I'm wondering why you removed the shift mention though? That was something that got mentioned several times in-game when Natashya's diary was turned over to Vorclaf. Reene 12:34, 4 December 2007 (CST)

Because it's got nothing to do with Natashya's early days and is simply put in because of the OP's bias. Most everything to do with her second phase or transition into Noblewoman, including Paschein's participation would be captured there, along with key GMPCs and others that played a hand in those events should be detailed. This is an eight year event, there are literally dozens of development points that should be captured to do this storyline any justice. --Pascheinw 13:30, 4 December 2007 (CST)

Natashya's new appearance from shifts were underlined both in-game and out of game by the GM running the NPC (I do wish I had a link to this post). If you don't think the Court Advisor of Zoluren aiding a criminal in changing her identity using the forbidden art of shift is worth a mention, well...

Like I said, I wrote what I knew. This is obviously going to be skewed toward what people actually told me, as I'm neither a GM nor a mind reader. I am not sure why everyone seems insistent on badgering me for not being omniscient. Reene 13:42, 4 December 2007 (CST)

No one has said it won't be mentioned in the appropriate section, plus the more damaging bits that seem not to have hit your radar. While I have been told that Paschein's was the longest running relationship with Natashya, I would never wish to imply that it was more important then it actually is, and I certainly don't want to overshadow actual events with details that aren't relevant on the timeline. --Pascheinw 13:58, 4 December 2007 (CST)

Good to hear then. I have personally erred on the side of including more detail than may be strictly necessary, but as the article gets longer and longer we may have to restructure things to keep it easy to read. Reene 15:16, 4 December 2007 (CST)

-- Added Natashya's last day summary from GM Auriane's post. I had mixed feeling adding this, but it's the most complete summary, with the exception of naming Paschein as who allegedly lured the Lady to her demise.

-- Added The Transition section based on first hand recollection and posts by GM Auriane. There's more of course to come.

Article Locked

This article has been locked because of a conflict concerning content. Please see above, and this discussion for details and to add your comments. Until a consensus is reached, the article will remain locked as is. I'm sorry it had to come to this, but this conflict must be resolved. --Naeya ^(talk) 17:17, 1 December 2007 (CST)

I agree, Naeya, I think we should keep it frozen for a few days to let things (hopefully) cool down. --Farman 18:07, 1 December 2007 (CST)

I unlocked the page, trusting to people's common sense and honor system. Unless the page has been blatantly defaced or filled with slander, we ask that you do not add or remove someone else's name without their consent. The policy on this is still under debate, but I'm relying on people's good sense to keep an edit war from occurring again. This article has various other facts that were question, so I opened it for those to be fixed. Keep disputes to this talk page. --Naeya ^(talk) 14:31, 3 December 2007 (CST)

It seems that at least two users have engaged in an edit-war again, I feel my most recent change can curb that, and I took the liberty of posting a warning to their User_talk pages. --Callek 19:27, 3 December 2007 (CST)

Revisions

I've rewritten a fair bit of the article, adding to it in places and compacting/summarizing/linking to larger explanations in others. Here's what's at the top of my to-do list right now:

• Filling out how Ragad met Natashya and some of the history there, as he is the PC that has known her and stuck with her the longest and would be able to provide a fair bit of insight.
• Contacting a few people that will help fill out the Outcast section and help explain her precise involvement.
• Finding the link to the post made to the events board explaining Natashya's past and conversion to a noblewoman. I believe NPC1 was the account it was made from? It would make a nice citation.
• Figuring out how the timeline locks together precisely for some of this stuff, especially as it relates to other things. For example, I'd like to know when Aguisian acquired his position as Court Scribe. Stuff like that. Dates (at least years) wouldn't hurt either.

Aguisian, Agnese and Natashya's bodyguard Kael(something) were all involved during the transition. When Natashya came north and became a guest of Vorclaf's, they both were with her. During the course of events, Vorclaf's Court Scribe (I want to say he was a gnome?) went to do research and Natashya loaned Aguisian to the Prince. Guessing a timeframe it would be somewhere late 2002/early 2003.--Pascheinw 16:28, 6 December 2007 (CST)

• Writing a new "Personality" section to tack up at the top, maybe restructuring the rest of the article to divide it into sections that make more sense.

And a completely random bit of trivia I feel like adding here: I listened to Dante's Prayer as I wrote this. I feel it was a fittingly dramatic backdrop. Reene 03:16, 6 December 2007 (CST)

"Natashya originally arrived on the scene originally working for Bilgrath, with Tigron and Rordan answering to her."

Both Natashya and Tigron were peers reporting to the Guild Enforcer Bilgrath. They were referenced as Bilgrath's right and left hands. Rordan, Saeryl and an assorted group of others who's names are somewhere on an old hardrive worked for the team. After the Sorrow War, Tigron took over enforcing in Shard while Bilgrath settled himself into Therengia and is suspected of playing a significant roll in the downfall of Sirolarn.--Pascheinw 10:03, 6 December 2007 (CST)

"Sorrow was not the only villain Natashya worked for at this time, however. She was also known to work for Sidhlot, providing yet another murky connection between the two."

No recollection on this tie, have you sources? --Pascheinw 10:15, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Before I rewrote the article I compiled a list of questions and sent them to dr-events asking for confirmation on my suspicions and interpretations of old events. While Auriane was not able to answer all of my questions she was allowed to confirm or deny certain things. Among these were questions regarding the status of Tigron and Rordan upon their arrival with Natashya and the Sidhlot bit, which was a suspicion based on some of the things mentioned by older Bards I talked to. If I find more external sources to cite within the article I'll certainly put them up - combing the Wren's Nest later won't hurt too much - but we are talking about things that happened a RL decade ago. Reene 12:17, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Very interesting. Would you mind sharing the email(s) here on the Elanthipedia, Reene? --Basselope 12:31, 6 December 2007 (CST)

I wouldn't usually mind, but she specifically requested she not be thrust into the drama or become part of the debate if possible and only identify my source if I was pressed on the issue. I don't feel comfortable violating a helpful GM's wishes. I would encourage those seeking confirmation of their own to email events themselves rather than hash it out here. Reene 12:54, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Most considered Sorrow and Sidhlot's goals as interchangable, it is interesting to learn that the Bard kidnappings and torture while looking for the perfect pitch were specifically something done for Sidhlot. --Pascheinw 16:28, 6 December 2007 (CST)

It is interesting, and it would be great IMO if this article became a medium for discussing and solving some of those old mysteries. The clues are out there we just have to find them and piece them together. Reene 17:14, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Regarding The Transition, what's missing here is the acquisition of easily concealed 'ladylike' weapons, the Pinnet that Natashya almost always wore, that has since been returned to Paschein. --Pascheinw 17:41, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Regarding Her Death, I think what's missing is that they were set up, thinking they were being summoned to a meeting by the Court Advisor, someone both Satarra and Natashya trusted, they were lured to Kearna with a promise that a guard would be provided there. --Pascheinw 17:41, 6 December 2007 (CST)

Regarding "It was during this time that she met Ragad in Therengia, who would swear himself to her. His relationship with her as her retainer would remain both personal and business until her death many years later. " Per Ragad, he wasn't around during the Sorrow events. He met Natashya in Leth Deriel, during the transition. --Pascheinw 08:43, 7 December 2007 (CST)

Had a lengthy chat with him last night about this one. Nat was insistent on him being her oldest friend during the thing, and the story I heard was that he'd met her in Theren and she'd given him a token which he still has. We hashed out the circumstances a bit and now we're trying to figure out exactly when this was, since he doesn't quite remember that far back. Reene 12:27, 7 December 2007 (CST)

No dispute there, Ragad was Natashya’s longest trusted confidant and ally. To a thief only another thief counts when it comes to business. --Pascheinw 13:40, 7 December 2007 (CST)

visions

The visions are interesting, but presented without any background. When did they occur? Were they visible to everybody, or only particular guilds/races/etc.?

I'll dig up dates tonight. It actually might be best to create a sub-page for these visions with a short explanation of what they are and what they do, considering how long this section is getting. Thoughts? Reene 13:39, 10 December 2007 (CST)

I agree, would be neat to see a discussion of what it all means. --Pascheinw 14:43, 10 December 2007 (CST)