Talk:Gwethdesuan (obsolete)

Question: I rolled an empath a little while back and noticed that while he had access to use a Jadeite Gwethdesuan as soon as I could get him one, he couldn't use either a Kyanite Gwethdesuan or an Albredine Crystal Ring. (Receiving message "Nothing seems to happen.") Does anyone know the requirements for, at the least, the use of a Kyanite Gwethdesuan? It would be useful information to edit into the main article. --Bedan 21:16, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Were you able to receive messages? I've never heard of a requirement to just listen.
-Glimmereyes 22:25, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Nope. No reception at all. I wish I could provide more information, but this will have to do to start. Since I'm Premium, I have a good number of really low level characters to test with. The two factors I focused on as being the solution were MD and Discipline, with Concentration also playing a role. I'm thinking it's a combination of both. I have two characters that get that message. On one character I have 2 MD, 22 Discipline, and 94 concentration. The second character has 39 MD, 11 Discipline, and 66 Concentration. It does not work on either of them. I also have a character with 17 Discipline, 104 Concentration, and 69 MD, and it works for him. My trader, Bedan, also uses both devices. His discipline is also in the 20s, but he only has 25 MD. I'm hoping this might help.
--Bedan 14:13, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

MD can't play a part since Barbs are able to use Gweths and any points in MD would mess them up. I thought Commoners could use them aswell which would rule out a Circle req, but can't say that I've ever tried myself. I vaugly remember Riddler was a Commoner and he held contests over the gweth, but that was ages ago and they may have added a Circle req.
-Glimmereyes 19:13, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Back before the conc changes, it was mentioned on the play.net forums that k gweths had a circle req. I assume that was a de facto sort of thing, since at the time stats alone did very little for your concentration. I know I was using them with less than 80ish concentration, though I didn't get my first ones until like 20th circle or so. Got enough TDPs to raise Character #2's discipline by 3 points? That should put you at 75, which is a likely cutoff point.--Symphaena 18:38, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Regarding the "just wore a Kyanite" sentence, it is my opinion that this is only an opinion and should not be included within this page. We may continue to state such beliefs as this within the game proper, but until such time as the majority of characters only wear a Kyanite and not a Jadeite gweth, such minority opinions should either be completely eliminated from the page or given a separate section labeled "Opinions regarding the use of gweths." --Amagaim 16:37, 14 July, 2009 (CDT)

I'm throwing this up here since it should be somewhere but I don't know where to put it.

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http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=1&topic=19&message=2572

A rather odd effect of gwethsmashers on the forums has been that in every single argument against them, the author has unintentionally highlighted why they should continue to exist. Typically this has been done in rather dramatic and easily dismissible fashion -- for example, someone complaining about a smash clearly demonstrating an irrational and combative personality that you could grate cheese on.

In contrast, these posts are well constructed and, though not without error, presents the most level-headed argument on the topic I've ever seen. So, I cannot dismiss it out of hand.

>>Point 1: Item Theft Inconsistencies

Though you are dismissive of the possibility, you are incorrect. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with item theft -- a player is free to take your scimitar and run for the hills if he does so without violating another policy. The later part is the stickler -- item theft is often entangled in PvP w/o Consent, Mechanical Abuse, Harassment, and other violations, and will thus be judged harshly if it winds up in front of a GM.

>>Point 2: Statistic Contest versus Open Smashing

Pretend for a moment that your intention is to moderate the gwethsmashing system, rather than undermine what you conceive will be your opponent's argument.

The statistic contest as it is set up is irrespective of skill or circle except as part of a positive correlation (higher circled characters will, on average, have higher mentals than lower circle characters). A more precise read of the situation would present a different form of favoritism instead: guild-based. Moon Mages and those who train stats like an archetypal Moon Mage will be dozens of circles ahead of the average, while Barbarians cannot do it at all.

While the two correlate, reading a causation between combat power and gwethsmash power is going to cause you undue distress. Comparing the potential that you may not be able to confront your aggressor with the inevitability that you will not be able to confront your aggressor with a system that supports commoner mules should make the outcome clear.

>>Point 3: Smasher Availability

No real argument possible or necessary here -- Gwethsmashers are not meant to be an especially rare item. As long as the accessability remains less than Gwethdesuans themselves, their price and availability will go without further moderation.

>>Point 4: Roleplaying

And here, I will assert, is where we again unintentionally display the merit of gwethsmashers.

The fundamental assumption of the argument, insofar as I interpret it, is that gwethsmashers intrude upon your roleplaying by allowing a PvP situation to exist in the gwethdesuan network. That is to say, someone may take exception to your character's comments and punish him for it, and you are then not only at a loss of the item but stifled in your attempt to roleplay your character.

Here's where I say the wildly unpopular part: this is a good thing. For the raw power and intrusive qualities of every single Gwethdesuan act, the average player in DragonRealms takes the system with irrational levity.

There are two legitimate reasons to use a gwethsmasher without venturing into the murky waters of Harassment policy. First, to police the gwethdesuans for violations of roleplay, as the community (which is to say, those who care enough and are invested enough to make and hold gwethsmashers) deems prudent. To that end, your post actually highlights that they are being successful. If someone is talking about GMNPCs "waking up," or referring to AIM as pigeons, or numerous other things we could toss out of the hat, they should be removed from the public forum until their roleplaying method improves.

Second, they could be gwethsmashing for an IC reason. That is, the character does not like what your character said, and decides to make his opinion known in an unsubtle manner. This is PvP, but it is also roleplaying and cannot be rejected if you wish to champion the cause of roleplaying at all. When your character is in a public forum, you do not get the privilege of determining who will interact with you, and how they will interpret your actions.

I've used the term "public forum" twice now intentionally. Gwethdesuans are different than anything else in the game -- they are not a single room, no matter how full, or a private roleplayed encounter with your friends. They are a medium where you are roleplaying with dozens if not hundreds of players simultaneously. You owe it to your fellow players to venture into it with only your absolute best performance, and in turn you must expect that any of those hundreds of players may engage you in roleplaying (with, theoretically, their best). If you do not care to open yourself up to roleplaying in such an extreme way, the only justifiable way to do so is to not open yourself up to roleplay in such an extreme way.

The sane alternative is, in fact, your nuclear option. It'd be better to remove gwethdesuans from the game (again), than to go back to what we were dealing with day in and day out before gwethsmashers were introduced.

-Armifer <Kvlt> Step 1: Want stuff! Step 2: Be ambitious! Step 3: Believe in the ability of your fellow man to carry you to heights you are too incompetent to reach alone.

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