Category talk:Player organizations

Naming convention for player organizations and families

Draft of Current Proposal

ABSOLON and I talked about the naming standards and categories, and here is what we are proposing for PC organizations: --ISHARON (talk) 15:29, 28 January 2015 (CST)

Page Names

• Family-based groups will have the page name Fancypants family.
• Non-family groups will have the same name that their Play.net folder has. If there is no Play.net folder, the page name will be their in-game designation unless there is a good reason not to do so.

Page Categories

All groups will be sorted into the following categories

• Sanction: official order or unofficial organization
• Status: active or inactive
• Function: choose at least one of the following:

1. family: groups are those that are defined by familial bonds (whether biological, adoptive, or marital), often sharing a common last name
2. martial: for militias and mercenary groups
3. service: groups that exist to sell goods or services
4. cultural/political: groups that promote particular cultures, religious beliefs, and/or political ideologies (this includes race-based groups such as S'Kra Mur ru'at). This category may serve as a catch-all for groups that do not fit into the above three functions.

• Location: if the group is sanctioned by a provincial government or only operates within a particular province, choose one of the following:

1. Zoluren
2. Therengia
3. Ilithi
4. Qi'Reshalia
5. Forfedhdar

Discussion

As part of the drive for standardizing page name conventions, we have come to the point we need to decide how to handle the page names of player organizations. Caraamon and I had a very brief discussion and came up with a basic guideline, but now need to open it up for suggestion and comment. What we came up with is as follows:

• Pages for official player organizations will have their page names be exactly as it appears in the Official Player-Run Organizations folder on the official forums.
• Pages for unofficial player organizations or families that have a folder in the Unofficial Player Guilds, Clans and Families folder on the official forums will have their page names be exactly as it appears in that folder.
• Player families without a folder on the official forums will have their page name indicate their functional status as opposed to a nickname or other designation. E.g. "Fancypants family" instead of "House Fancypants" or "The Fancypants Imperium." This includes multiple-family structures.
• Player organizations without a folder on the official forums that do not have a family structure will have their page name be the functional name of their organization without any nicknames or shortened versions. E.g. "Acenamacra militia" instead of "Acenamcrannihalators" or "The Acenamacra Reds."

In short, the suggestion is to have the page name be simply the functional name of the organization/family unless they have a folder on the official forums in which case the page name will be that instead. Note that a page's contents can include any nicknames or other designations without issue as long as they meet general content standards. These guidelines are only for the page title itself.
Again, I stress this is currently up for consideration as part of a general drive for page name standards and feedback is welcome.--ABSOLON (talk) 22:24, 24 January 2015 (CST)

I think the naming standard would certainly be helpful, esp. for those of us not in the major population centers that haven't really heard of the smaller groups or family houses. I imagine you already talked over and dismissed the suggestion, since it isn't listed above, but another way to go about things would be to do similar to what Caraamon suggested we do the Elothean Houses; add in (type) after the names for the different page focuses. For instance, on the House of the Floating Reed page, you will note there is a (shop) for the shop, (location) for the house grounds, etc.

For this project then, it would let each of the groups keep with the name they identify themselves with (using the ex. "House Fancypants"), but the page title would be House Fancypants (player) or House Fancypants (unofficial). If "House Fancypants" was an official order, it could be House Fancypants (order) or House Fancypants (official). And if it was a game organization (I'm thinking about all those Therengian houses the Barony oversees), it could be House Fancypants (SIMU) or House Fancypants (GM-controlled). Or whatever.

I guess I just see that last list item being a bit of a headache over the long haul, when you take the page name indicate their functional status into account. Militias are pretty straight forward, same with triages I guess. But what about things like the Ilithi Trading Company (are they a Trader organization, an Ilithi or Zoluren group, maybe a crafting group? They could fit a multitude of "functions"). It seems like you might have to come up with a pretty long list of possible qualifiers for the "functions", and even then, you might have groups that do multiple "functions" or that fit none of the defined "functions" so then a moderator would need to then be contacted to add in another one to the list or make a decision on which of the ones approved fit best to a group. In short, it would be subjective and not straightforward, yea?

Anyhow, I think the original suggestion works out too, just offering another suggestion and some feedback! --Kythryn 01:18, 25 January 2015 (CST)

Typically parenthesis in page names are there for disambiguation purposes only, so I don't see that as a good solution in this case as it just makes linking harder and requires more redirecting. Categories (see below) would be a better way to do this.

I think the idea is more to have the name reflect what the group actually represents rather than a specific function, so your example of Ilithi Trading Company would be able to stand as is since it fairly clearly defines its function as long as it isn't a family syndicate, in which case it should be listed as a family and the body text can list that the family runs the Ilithi Trading Company. Redirects are useful here, so if someone types in Ilithi Trading Company it would redirect to the appropriate page in the event that the page ends up not being called that.

That said, I had already mulled over non-family organization naming and I can easily see the argument here for non-family groups to just use whatever their official full name is as the page name as long as it accurately depicts the actual scope of the group. A handful of traders can hardly be called a Trading Empire, for example. I think the guild would have something to say about that at the very least. Nicknames should be out of the question either way, except in the body of the page and potentially as redirect pages.

An for easy way to categorize by general function... that would be to expand on the categories that are already there. E.g. Player militias, Player political organizations, Player crafting societies, etc. Specific functions aren't necessary here as it's just a general grouping and groups can belong to more than one if it fits. And these should only be put in place at a level where multiple groups fit into them. No sense creating a category for just one group.--ABSOLON (talk) 03:29, 25 January 2015 (CST)

I think that player-run family groups should just be Fancypants family, especially to distinguish them from official noble houses. I don't really see an issue with referring to militias with province-based functional names, except in the odd cases where more than one militia is operating in the same province, as was the case in Zoluren with the Vela'tohr and the Steel Gladiolus.

However, for other organizations, I would probably just use their official name (if present on the forums) or whatever they are calling themselves unless there is a good reason not to do so. An example of a good reason not to stick to the original name is the term "empire," which might be confused with actual historical governments.

Some of what we are trying to accomplish with group pages could probably be handled via category. That way, we can designate the group's function without having to work it into the page name. --ISHARON (talk) 14:45, 25 January 2015 (CST)

I'd like to know where else this has been done other than The Contraire Empire page? There are Elothean Houses, perhaps all Houses should be changed to reflect family post haste as to not confuse them as being an official House. I understand what you are saying but I also see that this was implemented yesterday and a very lengthy explanation written out. To perhaps make it look like you aren't only singling out the Contraire's some other pages could be adjusted, like current Houses. If we are trying to keep it from being confused with actual game lore, most families and player pages fall under this rule. If you are so offended by the name Empire there are syndicates and Houses and all sorts of bunk to be pointed out. I do as a rational person understand feathers are ruffled and this is something that has occurred in cycles throughout DR history. Is it really necessary to pick apart one page because it has upset your delicate senses?? The innuendos I understand as it is a family game. I thought the banner across the top states clearly and huge obnoxious ways that it is PLAYER RAN..it lets the viewer know smack in your face its NOT official and subject to 'opinion' Note that the following article is not necessarily accurate due to this group's status as a player-run organization. Because these types of articles are maintained by players about players, there is always the risk of alteration due to malice or desire for anonymity. This page will be monitored by the staff; please do not allow it to become a battleground. -The Elanthipedia Moderators Is this not enough to keep things sorted?? Is it not possible to add in that very banner that the 'name' of the organization or family is NOT reflective of DR History??? Is it necessary to snuff out everyone's view on how they see their families and characters?? That's like saying Caraamon. You are a Barbarian. Nothing more. Don't put your backstory up. Cause it's not true or factual as it's not recorded in history. Although you might think you are the loudest Gor'Tog ever, it's very possible there was a louder so you can't say that either. If you could just put aside what you think of the group itself and maybe be a bit open, it would be very much appreciated that you allow not just the Contraire's but ALL player groups to have a bit of freedom with what they label themselves. Make a different banner reminding us all again that it's NOT an actual empire.. Or just take away all imagination from Wiki and list only facts nothing more.. Just the facts.--THISACCOUNT (talk) 18:18, 25 January 2015 (CST)

em·pire (ĕm′pīr′) n. 1. a. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority. b. The territory included in such a unit. 2. An extensive enterprise under a unified authority: a publishing empire. 3. Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control: the extension of empire to distant lands.

There is no reason RP or otherwise the Contraires cannot be an extensive enterprise as defined under definition number 2. --GEELENJ (talk) 18:28, 25 January 2015 (CST)

First off, I want it to be absolutely clear, that while your page was the trigger for it, it is something that has needed to be done for a while and everyone will be changed to meet the new standard.

Second, while GMs have some oversight when it comes to the wiki, they are absolutely not staff and are not involved in the day to day activities of the wiki.

Lastly, the reason we're doing this is because we're trying to standardize naming conventions. Names are the first thing that comes up during searches, and in other searches they're all that come up. Therefor we are trying to make certain that all page names accurately reflect their contents. And that's what this is about, the title. Not the page contents, but the linking title by which you will be stored in databases as.

We are trying to make a concerted effort to allow some flexibility, mainly with the proposed rule to allow names that get accepted to the play.net non-official group forums. -CARAAMON (talk) 19:10, 25 January 2015 (CST)

I will add, as I indicated in the first line of this discussion, that this process of page name standardization has been ongoing for some time now. See the news listing about category naming for the start date. We started with categories and capitalization because they were the most egregious, but the process of deciding which pages to deal with has been organic since then as pages come to our attention for whatever reason. The time to deal with player organization page naming standards has come up because the sexual content edits required on the Contraire page brought it to our attention.

Also, if you read any of the suggested options on this page, particularly number 3, you will quickly realize that this page title convention is being applied to all player organization pages once we decide on an acceptable policy to add to the manual of style.

Lastly, if anyone has further comment about the Contraire page edits specifically, take them to the Contraire page's discussion page since this discussion page is not the place to do that.--ABSOLON (talk) 21:35, 25 January 2015 (CST)

As there hasn't been any new contribution to the discussion in a few weeks, we have gone ahead with the current proposal. Thanks to everyone who contributed.--ABSOLON (talk) 16:34, 10 February 2015 (CST)