Talk:Necromancer

Spoilers and Secrets

PLEASE READ Until such time as the staff can get together and discuss this, please refrain from posting things that might be considered spoilers or secrets. This is due to request by GMs and their stated intention to pull any link to articles that either contain spoilers, or link to articles containing them. The GMs have been very kind to us on multiple occasions and I think it behooves us to abide by their wishes. The following is a list of material that will be considered spoilers, but is not the only material considered such: Anything regarding joining the guild Identities of Necromancers that have not been revealed to non-Necromancers (i.e. through standard events) This will not cover such things as spells, advancement requirements, or similiar purely mechanical subjects. Note: This is a temporary measure until a more iron-clad policy can be reached.

Rewrite

Armifer's released enough information that the whole copying and pasting thing isn't viable any longer. I'm currently in the process of reorganizing and summarizing things into a proper article. --Ogoh 01:34, 21 January 2008 (CST)

Thanks Ogoh. You've been doing a great job collecting all the disclosed information. --Aetherie 01:39, 21 January 2008 (CST)

Thanks! I was planning to keep notes anyways -- It just made more sense to do it up here, so everybody could follow along. I took a first stab at the reorganization. I'll fiddle with it later, I'm sure. --Ogoh 17:34, 21 January 2008 (CST)

Split?

The Wiki threw a fit when I tried to incorporate the secrecy info about the Philosophers that armifer posted[1]. It suggested we split the article because it's a little too large. I'm guessing we should create an individual article about the Philosophers and move the information about them there. Thoughts? --Herald 09:51, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, the article is approaching the large size (again), and we're going to eventually want to split things up. Personally, I'd like to avoid that for a little longer, until the information being released is a little less generalized. For the time being, I got all the new info up on the page without an explosion. --Ogoh 10:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

This article really does need to be split up... --Farman 10:47, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Yep, it's certainly time. Lemme take a stab at it. --Ogoh 12:27, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Thanatology

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=26&topic=1&message=17 posted by DR-ZEYURN on 4/5/2009 11:55:52 AM

-::post begins::-
Here's how you're primarily going to learn Thanatology, by performing one of these five rituals upon the corpse.

--PRESERVE-- The preservation ritual does basically what its name implies, preserves a corpse so that it will not decay at the accelerated rate species of Elanthia (that are not adventurers) seem to enjoy. A prepatory ritual for other things, the preservation ritual will make a dead body last much longer, or until skinned and searched. Utilization of this ritual requires some knowledge of first aid, and prevents the ??? and Harvest rituals.

--???--- Knowledge of this ritual has been banned for high blasphemy.

--HARVEST-- The harvesting ritual allows a Necromancer to carve a piece of a corpse out for personal use to some diabolical end at a later point. Doing this ruins any possibility that the corpse could be skinned, but perhaps the Necromancer achieves some higher benefit from it later. Utilization of this ritual requires some knowledge of skinning, and cannot be done if the corpse has been skinned.

--ARISE-- The most time-consuming ritual in the Necromancer's arsenal, the ritual to Arise is performed just before the sorcerous magic needed to imbue a corpse with false life is enacted. The corpse in question must have already been PRESERVEd.

--FETISH-- The only ritual that is not performed on a corpse, this blasphemous ritual imbues a necrotic item that the Necromancer is holding with the power of death. It is presently unknown what uses these fetishes hold, or how many variants there are. Initial observation suggests that the item must be properly set up beforehand, and this ritual is just the final touch.

-::post ends::-

not sure how to do that little forum post thing you do, so i'll do it this way until i figure it out (should make a form for it ;p) --Legeres 17:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Post:Thanatology - 4/5/2009 - 11:55
-Glimmereyes 18:10, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

This info ought to be pushed over to Thanatology skill. -Devan 18:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Con Info

There is a lot of info from the Con, I can repost it here for people to format for the wiki if needed.

That would be wonderful, thanks. P.S., sign your posts :P -Moderator Caraamon Makdasi^(talk) 01:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry about that thought it would do it automatically. Not very wiki savvy, heh. ^(talk)

Things I remember from the roundtable:

1) Necromancers will have a certain mana type that they perceive as (pre-outrage getting to the point of them showing up corrupted).

1a)This will be static per the necro in question, and is determined randomly by character flag, sort of like the bard voice thing.

1b)Holy will not be one of the types a necro can show up as having, but everything else is possible.

1c)This mana type will be reflected in the character's default spell prep, as well as messaging for AP spells.

1d) One of the new spells will work in conjunction with this as well. When cast, it will strip all of your transcendental spells from you, then randomize what the rest of your spells appear as to others. The new spell appearances will match up to the mana type you perceive as - Lunar might make it look like you have Shadows up, etc.

2) No matter what Jolebin says, fetishes are for buffing your Risen. They will be created through the thanatology ritual, then put on the Risen to give them whatever effect (a Risen becoming a 'tank type' or 'dps type' were sorts of things mentioned as possible effects) until the Risen drops re-dead. The fetish will be used up in application to the Risen.

2a) There was also discussion about maybe some simple effect fetishes that would be dropped in a room to spy or the like.

3) The ??? ritual is Consume Flesh. Yes, it is necro self healing.

3a)It requires a corpse to be present. The corpse can be PC or NPC.

3b) To heal a part on yourself, the corpse must have its corresponding part not already destroyed. The ritual will destroy the corresponding part on the corpse while healing it on the necro.

3c) No, it doesn't require the necro to literally eat the body part. It's a magical consumption.

4) Lots of Risen discussion

4a) Risen will not have the special attacks of whatever you make them from. IE: Dillo Risen will not ambush, etc.

4b) Risen power is based off of the necro's TM, plus any buffs put on it through thanatology rituals.

4c) Risen 'type' will be determined by the fetishes applied to the Risen. Some types that were discussed: tanks that would taunt creatures away from the necro and have good defenses, dps types ala theives with no backstab (but maybe ambush attacks), scout types.

4d) Risen can use weapons, providing the base creature had hands. They can also possibly carry other items, amount TBD.

4e) Risen will deteriorate over time. Spells will either speed up this decay timer (things that heal the Risen shorten the duration of the Risen) or delay it (One spell in particular had this as its main function)

4f) The duration/decay timer on the Risen stops when you are logged off.

4g) When you log off, your Risen logs off where it is and will return there when you log back on. If had items on it, it will still have them upon return - no vomiting them up like Shadow Servents.

4h) Risen will be able to be moved around independently from their creator, but this will be manual movement on the part of the player. You can't send your Risen to 'find Character' or 'follow Character' and have it move around on its own. You CAN have it return to you automatically (instantly?), regardless of the distance between necro and Risen. Risen don't need ferries.

4i) Risen don't talk, but they can show their creator what they see, provided that the necro used whatever command to be able to see through the Risen.

4j) It is far, far less outrage and time intensive to heal or rez your Risen than it is to create a new one.

4k) No Risen from PC corpses.

also: More spells. I don't remember what they all were exactly =/ However, the lovely Ben from plat was taking notes, so he should be able to fill in that part.

>>Any chance we could NOT have the mana type you appear as be random? Just seems like what it appears as could drastically change how you RP your cover, and rolling up one necro after another until you get the one you want could be... annoying.

Nope. While what the Necromancers do might, in fact, be a science, it's not a precise science. Arcane mana attunement just can't be controlled really well.

ICly, a budding Necromancer probably wouldn't even know they can get away with pretending to be another type of caster (Lyras and company certainly don't), and certainly wouldn't make any long-term plans until after they attained attunement and figured out what was going on.

-Armifer

Your "mana flavor" is with you and easily discernible right at 1st circle: toss an Energy Bolt at something and look at what color it is.

As your Divine Outrage and the necromantic corruption of your body increases, this becomes pretty dodgy and eventually your attunement to the Arcane overwhelms any affinity you have to the conventional mana frequencies. The Perverse would argue that's the point you become a real Necromancer.

-Armifer

There's four reasons why we did it this way.

1: The fiction around Arcane mana and how Necromancers are doing what they do strongly encourages it. 2: There's far less technical overhead. 3: Being able to choose "flavors" would just lead to people wanting backsies on any choice, which generally annoys me and is contrary to the fiction of how attunement works. 4: Even if you had the ability to switch "flavors," it would do nothing but hurt your chances to pass yourself off as Not a Necromancer.

This is not part of an elaborate Necromancer disguise system or a meaningful statement about your character's Ultimate Magical Destiny -- it's an incidental form of misdirection that's merely meant to allow you to walk around the street and get some TM ranks without screaming out you're a Necromancer (Outrage notwithstanding).

-Armifer

>also: More spells. I don't remember what they all were exactly =/ However, the lovely Ben from plat was taking notes, so he should be able to fill in that part.

I am just back home now, so am transcribing stuff from my awful notes. Your list seems to be amazingly thorough actually, so I think I am going to put up the spells first, and then the other stuff in a separate post, which may end up with substantial repetition.

There are 4 spellbooks. Transcendence buffs and the Risen shenanigans cause Divine Outrage. The other two don't. More on Outrage in follow-up post.

TM Spells (NOR)

-Acid Splash -> does 2 random damage types each time its cast, so no-one will have fool-proof resistances against it -Something (cant read my writing) -> When fully targeted gives the necro 10% vitality back as well as dealing damage -Vivisection -> The fabled magic snipe. Scheduled to have a 30th circle requirement -Bloodburst -> Substantial damage, but requires that the caster have a bleeder, or suffer vitality loss ________________________________________

Transcendence (OR) -Butchers Eye -> Skinning+Thanatology buff -Another Eye One (not sure of the name) -> Perc+PP buff The eyes will modify the way your eyes look to the world, and youll get a malevolent glow if both your eyes are destroyed at moment of casting -Calcified Hide -> Cage of Light against physical damage. In context of the new combat shenanigans this will work to reduce the actual damage to bodyparts, not the vitality. -Worms Mist -> Anti-magic shell, discussed in great length previously -Philosophers Preservation -> Evasion+Reflex buff. Deals 10% vitality and fatigue damage on wearing off, but you can refresh it without these penalties. (Continuing to incur Outrage) ________________________________________

Psychic Spells (NOR) -Obfuscation ->Hiding+Stalking buff -Eyes of the Blind -> Invisibility, and will periodically re-invis you over the duration -Rite of Contrition -> Held mana spell that strips you of all Transcendence buffs, and makes any remaining buff you cast on yourself look like spells of the school in your perceived mana type. This isnt fool-proof against people outing you though, since if someone else actually casts the real spell on you, it will appear twice. This spell also reduces your perceived Outrage for the duration. -Visions of Darkness -> Perception debuff on target -Heighten Pain -> Increases damage the target takes -Petrifying Vision -> WvW Halt for Necros -Evil Goo (Z couldnt recall name at the time, and I am too tired to look it up now) -> AoE causing RT based on success ________________________________________

Risen Spellbook (OR) -Call from Beyond -> Raise your Risen from a prepared corpse. Woo! Has a substantial duration (hours), and causes grotesque amounts of Divine Outrage. If the corpse is damaged, the power of the spell will be reduced based on the amount of damage required to be healed. The Risen will come in a selection of flavours, such as Stealthy, Tanky, and Damagy, with the Tanky one actually taunting critters off you. Casters TM, not critter level determines the powers of the Risen. So you can hunt dillos with your rat risen. As was mentioned you will be able to give them items, though they will be required to have the appropriate appendages to wear them. -Reconstruct Body -> Heals a dead body. So this is for use in preparation for getting your Risen up and at them, and will also function on yourself if you ever become a Lich. -Resist Putrefaction -> Reduces degradation of Risen and buffs it based on type (so the tank would get defensive buffs, the damagy dude a damage one, and stealths for the other one) -Possible Explosion Spell -> It has been mentioned there may be a spell that blows up your Risen for substantial AoE damage.

Outrage: Outrage is BAD. Not fun-bad where you want to max it out just to show how much of an individual you are, but actually, tangibly bad to where you will want to fly under the radar. Outrage will decay gradually as you are logged in, but you can only get a total of 2.5hrs worth of drain per day. So if you go mental on outrage spells, it could be a long long time getting out of the dog house. No mention was made of an active way to reduce outrage. Only spells from Transcendental/Risen books cause it. Thanatology rituals do not, as a guy gotta train, like. There will be signs as you are nearing the top end of Divine Outrage. If you hit endzone on DOR, casting any further spell causing Outrage will have a >5% chance of being slain on the spot in entirely undramatic fashion, though you will be free to imagine something much cooler happened. Social Outrage is what allows people to squeal on you to the justice system. It is essentially guaranteed to work if you are within the justice area with your Risen or Transcendence buffs active. Beyond that Charisma will be a factor in seeing whether or not the posse is sent after you (and in sentencing if you get caught). The posse will not be the automatic one you get for in-town murder, so escaping will help somewhat. False (or unsuccessful) accusations will end up with the accuser being charged with forbidden practices, so you dont get perma-outed as a necro for having that on your rap sheet. Social Outrage is not province-specific, so I assume its just the same pool as Divine Outrage.

Risen: Yay Risen! Risen will cause the most outrage of anything you can do, so it behooves you to pick one and keep it around as long as possible. Letting you learn TM off Risen damage is being considered. Risen will not be able to go look for players, though you are free to move it around remotely by telling it which direction to shamble off in. You will be able to see through their eyes like a familiar, but they will be unable to speak. They will be able to return to you instantly from anywhere by being commanded to follow and moving to an adjacent room. They will be able to drop items you give them, so can be used as a super-awkward, but blissfully impersonal delivery system, since the names will be <creaturetype> Risen, not <yournamehere>s <creaturetype> Risen.

Mana Mana: As already mentioned, Necromancers will be set to a random pretend guild effectively at character creation. They will start off with that guilds prep, and when perceived will seem to be using the appropriate mana type. This type cant be holy. In terms of mana available for the necromancer to use in any given room, that is based on all 4 mana types. Holy will determine what proportion of life and elemental will be used, with lunar mana giving a bonus. So we will have some of the fluctuation of the moonies, but mostly other peoples big mana rooms should be handy for us too, if you are for some reason unhinged enough to hang around triage or something.

Thanatology: Learned by interfering with corpses. Teaching range scheduled to be in line with combats for that creature. Preservation will keep the corpse around longer, contest and teach first aid, and prep it for Call from Beyond. So prepare to hunt in awesomely terrifying rooms littered with corpses. Consumption is a ritual that (if successful) will heal you somewhat. The catch is that healing comes from the corresponding body part, so you will start looking at how exactly you kill things. Harvest Ritual collects various bits and pieces from a corpse for creating fetishes and grafting. It also contests and teaches skinning. Grafting is still on the cards, and the ability to graft onto your Risen will come before your ability to graft onto yourself. Both will be Thanatology-based guild abilities. Fetishes, as discussed, will provide temporary buffs to your Risen, in a somewhat CJ-way. They may also have other miscellaneous uses, such as planting them in a room to view it remotely.

Im a Survival Prime!: Necromancers are not getting a bonus to survival skills anywhere. We are getting Risen. Which is awesome, even though the Stealthy Risen will not be able to steal from shops :-/ Necros are not getting a guild-specific dismantle because Z thinks they are stupid. I agree they are stupid, but think they are a fun-kind of stupid that made this feel like the only low point of the roundtable. The empathy/thanatology crossover for teaching is still on the cards, and a proposal will be put forward to have the transference link requirement removed for these classes, though it has not been approved yet. This will be fun for the necros who end up with life mana.

Guild Release: The release is mostly held up by Risen coding at the moment. The bright side is that they will function mostly within creature mechanics, so the wheel is not being re-invented and a tentative expectation exists to have a release in three monthsish. There will be no circle cap at release, so Mr. Totenus can fly to 150 at a dizzying pace. There will be one guild leader at release. There will be no skill checks to get into the guild, so you can join from the character generator. ________________________________________

This is pretty much the extent of my notes and questioning from the con. I apologise to the original poster and the rest of ye for duplicating some of the material, but it was much much easier for me to just write up everything I had, which is quite a lot. I see now I missed out on asking a few things I should have (and simply didn't grasp some of the stuff explained properly, like I know now we'll get our favours from the thing behind Lyras, but don't remember if this will start happening the first time you hit DOR endzone. I think that's it), but all in all I feel pretty sated to work towards the guild release now.

>>-Something (cant read my writing) -> When fully targeted gives the necro 10% vitality back as well as dealing damage

Oh hey. Pretty sure that was Siphon Vitality. I also remember that it was stated that snap casts would not give health back to the necro, but would still damage the target.

>>-Philosophers Preservation -> Evasion+Reflex buff. Deals 10% vitality and fatigue damage on wearing off, but you can refresh it without these penalties. (Continuing to incur Outrage)

Adding to this - the 10% vit damage when the spell wears off is based off of the caster's BASE vitality, not current. A necro can die if not careful.

>>apologise to the original poster and the rest of ye for duplicating some of the material, but it was much much easier for me to just write up everything I had, which is quite a lot.

<3 You didn't even laugh at me (that I remember)when I dropped my drink my in shoe on the patio, a little redundancy I can forgive.

>>I see now I missed out on asking a few things I should have (and simply didn't grasp some of the stuff explained properly, like I know now we'll get our favours from the thing behind Lyras, but don't remember if this will start happening the first time you hit DOR endzone. I think that's it),

I'm remembering the favor thing that way, sort of. The thing behind Lyras (that Z giggles about no one figuring out the identity of) is the necro favor giver, and once you hit the DOR tipping point you will be stripped of all regular favors on the spot. At that time, you'll need to start getting necro favors, providing you want to stick around still. I don't remember anything being directly stated about how you'll do that, however.

>>Also, at one point Lyras stuck a boney arm outa her robe and ripped someones chest out. Is that a spell ? I sorta assumed it was an SVS test. But i was told it mighta been a graft thing too... Any info on this move?

It's just one of her gmpc special abilities. It is technically a graft, though. >>Entropy's Glory, this is likely the best accounting of what it is.

I'll give you this one for free. Entropy's Glory was manifestation #2.

Before you get any ideas, however, note that "The Hunger" has invested considerably more of itself into the incursion this time than "Entropy's Glory" ever did. Edward's gambit has about zero chance of working again.

I won't further confirm or deny any guesses (it's meant to be a mystery), but I will point out one thing.

There is an arbitrary number of extraplanar... things out there. Do not assume that Maelshyve and Chezarek's demon and the Hunger and so on are all connected just because they all happen to exist. Though they might be connected for other reasons.

Ultimately, we're never going to flat out tell you who the Hunger is. Its identity exists largely to provide internal consistency for how we portray it, and to provide an enduring mystery surrounding what is going on. No harm done if you figure it out (or create a compelling narrative that's wrong), but don't except any confirmation anytime in the future.

-Armifer

Liches or people who have achieved some measure of true Transcendence (though not necessarily full) are above being struck down by the gods' whimsy.

-Z

>>I read the unspoken ending to this as "and therefore require their briefly focused malice instead."

The struck dead penalty is an expression of the gods' contempt. You are being struck down with as much concern and effort as you would swat a bug on your computer desk. The living, mortal Necromancer is within the Immortals' control.

When a Necromancer has taken the Descent, and especially if a Necromancer ever managed to complete the Great Work, the Necromancer is not so much anymore. They're Something Else and the gods cannot simply wish them away anymore. The gods have to approach them as legitimate threats, demonic pawns...

...or, the Philosophers would argue, equals.

-Armifer

There ya go. ~User:Xzean

Updates

I sorta took it upon myself to do all the Con updates, considering they still hadn't been touched. I don't mind keeping it up to date, although like I said before it might be a bit messy and anyone should be welcome to clean up something I didn't do right. --Xzean 1:08 PM EST Sept 09 2009

Guild Goes Live

I removed the disclaimer about the guild's not being live in the game. Here is the relevant GM announcement:

Speculation and Hinting · on 11/22/2009 10:50:52 PM

I realize people kind of have an expectation that there'll be a bit of a wink wink nudge nudge regarding how we as GMs will react during the release of the Necromancer Guild.

So, I'm just going to offer a few suggestions regarding a possible search.

1) There's only one guild.

2) The guild is in P1.

3) If you were hypothetically going to search for the guild, I would suggest doing it by going through old areas and examining them very closely to find an entirely new area.

-Z

http://www.play.net/dr/info/spells/spelllist.asp?guild=11

Not sure what you guys want to do with this, but this got put up last night. Reene 17:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Guild Page compared to others + valid information.

Guild Page + Limits on info

Two things.

For one, alot of work needs to be done to bring this guild page into somewhat of a similar appearance as the other guild pages. This includes following the pattern of Guildhalls/Skillset/Special Abilities/and then a link to the guild spells. Currently, there is a great amount of floating lore and GM discussion in the guild page. Though this is information, it really isn't needed for the front page description of the guild, as with all the other guilds. Since its an official guild now and not just speculation, we should clean it up.

Two, guild location? I'm not going to get into a huge posting war / online-persona power struggle on whether or not to alert about talking to the monks. This site is dedicated to the distribution of information about Elanthia, and is the largest collection of DR information, secret or not, on the web. Currently, any google search will give a lot more information then just that of approaching the monks out the north gate, which is bizarre as in the fact that DR information has become harder and harder to locate in the recent years when trying to find it.

If one is to seriously take up the position that DR secrets should be kept secret on a third party site (which seems to be a bit of a roleplay position outside of the game...) then it is doing nothing but pushing viewers to other sites (I for one had to do so, and one could also point to a large forum community that has formed to answer such questions). One must also consider deleting all the information about thief guild leaders, thief khri, guild cantrips, guild 100 circle abilities, various guild quested abilities, quested spells (Shadewatch mirror, etc), and how to get to various locations long considered normal.

Feel free to post any secret you care to add, HOWEVER, do it on a separate page clearly marked as a spoiler page. -Moderator Caraamon Makdasi^(talk) 08:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It has been the expressed wish of the GMs involved in the guild that quest information not be shared. While they can't exactly do anything about it here, I am inclined to respect their explicit wishes and requests. Reene 08:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I have deleted the link to the spoiler as per the GMs wishes. Xzean 12:46, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

As per Caraamon's statement above (who is a mod if you haven't noticed), this information is valid. This site is not officially connected to DR so a GM's wishes on keeping certain secrets shouldn't have a huge amount of sway here. I wouldn't pass the idea that many GM's don't agree with the site in general as it provides info on countless situations where GMs' designs and puzzles have been implemented to provide some of the roleplay and challenge in the game. This information is no different. This is also information that is not beyond any google search, and is extremely pertinent to the guild as you can not join without it.

Not disrespecting GM's here, but the whole point of this wiki is to give information. BrookieDragon

You are disrespecting them, as well as flying in the face of an explicit and specific request to keep this information off of the wiki. This is something that needs to be discussed an the mods need to weigh the things that I have pointed out below before you go adding it back again. If this project and its editors begins flagrantly disrespecting and ignoring the requests of GMs they will not continue to support it as much as they have been, and frankly neither will I. Reene 02:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I have in no way disrespected anyone. This is a third party website where, within the contents, countless spoilers are given all over this website. If a person wishes to preserve their RP they simply do not need to click the easily avoidable spoiler. Your personal support of the website is not required nor should your personal interest dictate what the website is.

This is no different then the ending plot lines of a book, movie, game being discussed among people on the internet. Sure a producer or someone of the such would like their work to remain fully a surprise and undisclosed, but is fully impossible..nor is it outside the rights of the people that wish to discuss it.

Two things in particular I would like to ask/point out.

1) - Please give a link to a GM specifically saying "We do not want this info to appear on Elanthipedia" as you claim they have said.

2) - This is something that has already "been discussed by mods." You can look up in this very discussion and see the mod statement. Simply because you do not respect his decision or enjoy it does not give you the right to revert his decision until further discussion is made. The vice versa is true. His decision will stand until it is discussed by mods and a different decision is made, which is all fine and dandy if they do.

BrookieDragon

Wow, drama.

For what it's worth, Abasha and I have both expressed, when asked, that we'd generally prefer spoilers about the guildhall to not exist. That said, I respect and support BrookieDragon's argument that our interests are not the ones at stake here: this is a 3rd party website, do as you please within the various ethical and legal limits.

My only stake in this is the DR forums, which I will preserve: if you choose to include the guildhall spoilers, I will pull posts that contain links to those articles or articles that link to them in turn, just as I'd pull any direct link to DRSecrets' discussions. Whether having more "face validity" than DRSecrets or the Yahoo list is important to your article is something to decide amongst yourselves. Armifer 06:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Elanthipedia has more inherent "face value" than DRSecrets or Yahoo due the volume of information that is catalogued here. It should come to no surprise that Armifer would pull posts with links to spoilers. I'd hope the Thief GMs would pull post that link to Thief secrets; Cleric GMs pull posts that link to Cleric secrets; Moon Mage GMs that pull post that link to Moon Mage secrets, and so on. Now, frankly, I don't care whether the info is posted or not, but it slightly annoys me the that people who are working hard on providing info to the players are being arm-twisted (and, in this case, outright blackmailed) to honor the "GM's wishes" (actual quote). --Dhidow 15:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm uncertain how it can be both something you hope would happen and "outright blackmail" at the same time, but I assume some sort of straw man is involved.

Regardless, I have only stepped in to make our intentions and request clear, since the confusion over them was a source of The Dramas in a website I think is useful. I do not intend to become involved in what you decide to do with the information now that you have been given it. Armifer 22:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I stated my concern plainly and honestly. On a website that has received major contributions and assistance from GMs over the past couple of years, and currently has the presence of one of them on a talk page, you must honestly ask yourself if doing something that annoys or alienates them is in the best interests of the project. This is the only thing to my knowledge that they have expressed an explicit desire to not see posted, and I believe it incredibly unwise to bite the hand that feeds you. Reene 00:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Let me first say that you two (Reene and Armifer) will get what you want. This is due to the fact that most DR players are good people and don't want to antagonize staff that represent the game. I mean, really, ask yourself: Who really wants to go against the "GMs wishes" (actual quote)? If necromancer secrets are posted, Reene says that s/he will stop contributing to the site while Armifer threatens to pull links to Elanthipedia. This amounts to taking your ball and going home because you didn't get your way. It's childish and petty. It is my opinion that a Wiki with threats and/or a Wiki without discussion, dialogue, and compromise isn't a Wiki at all. --Dhidow 12:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I would take your rhetoric more seriously if your only contribution to the wiki wasn't merely posting on this talk page. Reene 21:29, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Whatever my feelings on "how it should be" the fact is that our personal opinions are less important than things that interfere with running this site. In a perfect world, we'd post everything and anything we want, but it's not a perfect world. Several times before, we've had GMs give us information that would have taken a long time to discover if at all, and thus it behooves us to at least consider their wishes. We are not DRSecrets, though we do share some of the same information.

In addition, I find it excessive to call it arm twisting. If a doctor does something you don't like, you're not going to refer your friends to him. Likewise, if we post things they don't want us to, they're just not going to point anyone in our direction. Realistically, if they wanted to hurt us, they could do it pretty easily with all the murkiness surrounding wikis and copyright. We go into far more detail than most wikis, and thus we really can't operate without the goodwill of Simutronics.-Moderator Caraamon Makdasi^(talk) 23:17, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Spoilers

I wrote the below earlier today before Caraamon's post - so it doesn't reflect that, and am just reposting it due to a posting error earlier. However it seems to be in agreement with what he was saying. --Mozzik 08:34, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

	SPOILER ALERT!
	This article reveals in-game secrets, spoilers, walkthroughs, or other information not intended for general knowledge in-game.

This entire page should be cleaned up a lot and made more standardized with the other folders. What sort of limits are we wanting for spoilers and whatnot? For example I'm just going to leave this here for now since I know some people have been collecting them for other guilds....

(Yes, this clearly needs to be cleaned up before moving to a real page)

Zamidren Book eyes you up and down. "Well, well, NAME. You have been quite the curious one, haven't you." He pauses, stroking his chin while appraising you with his intense, stormy grey eyes. I> "You see, this presents a bit of a problem for me," continues Zamidren. "You have obviously seen far too much now. On the other hand, it'd be a pity to have to kill one with so much potential, especially since you do not seem to be the type to run screaming." He strokes his chin, still appraising you. I> "Let me tell you who we truly are. My name is Zamidren Book, and I do what I can to teach the Philosophers of the Knife. You may have heard about me, you may have not. The Temple has certainly been decrying my name rather loudly as of late." He looks at you rather intently, focusing on you. I> "This world is... broken, Hoid." Zamidren paces about the room, slowly but deliberately. "Only we have the tools, the drive, the *ambition* to properly continue the Great Work, the birthright of the mortal races. But more than anything else, there is something we need, and it holds us back." I> "The Philosophy needs students, Hoid. Students that have the right mindset, the willingness to see beyond primal terror, beyond society's ignorant values, beyond the worldviews that herd the sheep. We need those who can drink of dark power without being consumed by it." Zamidren looks fervent, his hand clenched into a fist on the desk. I> Zamidren smiles a bit, his expression softening. "I have been watching you closely ever since you stepped foot in the monastery, Hoid. Though you have seen things that would make an ordinary man balk, you continued. Though you were told not to, you continued looking where you were told you shouldn't. And... you have a tolerance for hard work. All of these make for desireable qualities in a Philosopher." I> Zamidren Book moves behind you, untying the ropes that bind your arms. "You have a choice, it seems. You are at a crossroads, one you cannot turn back from. If you have the drive, the dedication, the *will* to take up the power, the knowledge, the burden of the Philosophers, then join us." Zamidren Book goes silent, as if waiting for your answer. [Type JOIN now to join the Necromancer's Guild] >l [Book's Private Study] Row upon row of volumes and tomes line several darkly stained cedar shelves, taking up the entire eastern wall of the room. A dark mahogany desk stands in the center of the room, a large and comfortable-looking chair behind it. Two narrow strips of deep red carpeting run along each side of the desk, simply accenting the black marble floor. You also see an ornately carved wooden door and Philosopher Zamidren Book. Obvious exits: none. >open door Zamidren shakes his head slightly. "It's a pity, NAME. You had so much potential. Between the curiosity, the dedication, the willingness to see beyond the mundane... You would have made a fine Philosopher. Ah well, I suppose that you will make almost as good an unwilling servant as you would a willing one."

Zamidren Book gestures at you, almost casually. Your vision fails you, filled with brief, primal visions of writhing, undescribable horrors. As your brain struggles with their defiance of reality, you are left petrified with only the certainty that what you saw should never have been glimpsed. I>join You don't seem to be able to move to do that. I> Gesturing dismissively, Zamidren Book looks at you with contempt. "Take this man down to the laboratory and do what you will." You realize in mute horror that these people don't plan on letting you go any time soon. I> Two of the robed figures, who you now suspect aren't monks at all, drag you away, having quite an easy time of it with the spell binding you. You find yourself... [Monastery, Dungeon] A large metal table takes up most of this cramped cell, which is kept quite clean and dry. Marble obelisks rise in each corner, each one glowing with energy used for some unholy purpose. No windows are visible at all, the only light coming from the towering pillars. You also see a steel cell door. Obvious exits: none. IP> Your immobile body is placed upon the large metal table, and darkness surrounds you. Though no rope or chain holds you, you're completely unable to move, and can barely breathe. IP> Time ceases to exist. Days, perhaps weeks pass. It's impossible to tell in this windowless dungeon. Awful, painful, sickening experiments are performed on you, foul magic and relentless corruption assault you in a never-ending stream of agony. You see nameless things that you are certain no RACE was ever meant to look at. IP> As if nothing but a fading dream, you wake up as if from an overly long nightmare. You find yourself lying helplessly next to the Oxenwaithe and you remember that... something terrible happened to you. However, your memories of the last several weeks are quite fleeting. [The Crossing, Varlet's Run] You happen upon a shadowy street corner, within leaping distance of the riverbank for a quick getaway via the River Oxenwaithe or a fast dart into the murky underpinnings of Oxenwaithe Bridge. The lack of illumination also serves to protect the identities of the customers of the small, dimly-lit shop by the side of the road. Obvious paths: north, southeast, west. P> The more you try to remember of the last few days, the less you recall, until all memory of it is gone completely. What *have* you been doing? You're not sure any more. All you know is that something horrible happened to you and that you can't remember any of it at all. P>l [The Crossing, Varlet's Run] You happen upon a shadowy street corner, within leaping distance of the riverbank for a quick getaway via the River Oxenwaithe or a fast dart into the murky underpinnings of Oxenwaithe Bridge. The lack of illumination also serves to protect the identities of the customers of the small, dimly-lit shop by the side of the road. Obvious paths: north, southeast, west.

And if you do join

>join Zamidren Book looks at you with an odd light in his eyes. "You truly wish to join the order of Philosophers, my son? I will warn you, the road will not be an easy one by any means, and once you begin it you cannot turn back."

Continuing, Zamidren Book's eyes take a hardened look. "Because of the ignorance of common men and Immortals alike, we are lumped in with the others that abuse the the power we study. You will be no exception." He strokes his chin thoughtfully. "However, there is also much to be learned in this endeavor as well. If you are certain, then reassert your desire." [Type JOIN again within 30 seconds to join the guild.] >join Stroking his chin and looking at you appraisingly, Zamidren Book nods. "Very well, my son. For you, the journey into the Philosophy begins now."

Zamidren Book gestures at you, almost casually. Your vision fails you, filled with brief, primal visions of writhing, undescribable horrors. As your brain struggles with their defiance of reality, you are left petrified with only the certainty that what you saw should never have been glimpsed. I> Two figures in brown robes enter the room, and Zamidren Book nods to them. "Take this initiate to the Tower and open his eyes to the first glimpse of the Alchemy of Flesh." One of the monks nods to Zamidren, and the pair close in on you. Though no ropes bind your body, you still find yourself completely unable to move. I> You are carried into a stone tower, eventually finding yourself... [Monastery, Northwest Tower] A large metal slab takes up most of this circular room, surrounded by sigils carved into the dark marble floor. Marble obelisks rise at the four cardinal points, each one crackling with energy used for some unholy purpose. No windows are visible at all, the only light coming from the towering pillars. You also see a flight of stairs. Obvious exits: none. I> Your limp body is placed onto the marble slab, and you vaguely hear chanting around you. All you can do is stare upwards, at a simple but brightly glowing orb above you. IP> Oily tendrils of green-tinged red rise all around you. All at once, magic begins rushing into your body through your eyes, wracking your mind, your soul and your body with a wrenching pain. You feel wrathful eyes upon you, condemning you for your choice. IP> As soon as you think that you can bear no more of the horrible agony, it falls away, your vision plunging you into a nightmarish version of reality instead. Greasy black veins of coagulated fat hang in the air like limp ropes, the tower walls covered with choking layers of rust. IP> Glowing rents in the fabric of reality burn lines into your vision. Hundreds of eyes seem to stare into nowhere, mirroring your own, and dark spots float across your mind's eye. Sanity threatens to abandon you as your perceptions are opened to the horrors that taunt the imagination but remain always hidden from natural sight. IP> As the chant of the robed figures around you dies down a bit, you feel the magic fading away somewhat. However, though the sensation lessens, it does not entirely leave you. Your head feels very muddled, as if you're trying to watch far too many things at once. IP> Though the nightmarish illusion seems to be fading somewhat, at the corners of your eyes you still occasionally glimpse cracks in the spaces between reality. With both anticipation and dread you realize that the way you view the world has forever been changed. IP> Finally, you feel the magic release you fully again, and you are led back to Zamidren Book's private study. You find yourself... [Book's Private Study] Row upon row of volumes and tomes line several darkly stained cedar shelves, taking up the entire eastern wall of the room. A dark mahogany desk stands in the center of the room, a large and comfortable-looking chair behind it. Two narrow strips of deep red carpeting run along each side of the desk, simply accenting the black marble floor. You also see an ornately carved wooden door and Philosopher Zamidren Book. Obvious exits: none. > Zamidren nods to the monks, discussing with them briefly, then turns back to you.

"Congratulations, my son, and welcome into the Order of the Philosophers of the Knife." He nods to you warmly, taking you aside to speak with you further. > Zamidren motions you to a nearby chair, and begins speaking. "Now that you are one of us, my son, I shall tell you of the Philosophy of the Knife." He smirks, just a bit, then looks more serious. "We are a group that is dedicated to the Great Work." Zamidren pauses again, looking thoughtful. "Now, ponder this for a moment, my son. How much death is there in a single day? Hundreds, thousands of people are dying, every single day. Whether from old age, being killed by monsters, or from one of hundreds of other means, the fact is that everyone dies." s> Zamidren continues, gazing at you very intently with his stormy grey eyes. "The mortal races are not alone in this, my son. Far from it... every living thing in nature is bound to the cycle of death. From the noblest of kings to the lowliest worm. The moment something is born, it begins the slow but inevitable march toward its own death." He pauses, appearing to be gathering his thoughts. "Those who do not die, ghosts and spirits, are shunned by the gods whether their damnation was their fault or not." s> Zamidren scowls slightly, rapping his fingers on the desk. "Now, ponder this, my son. What kind of a world is this, where every single living thing is damned from birth to suffer and die? It is a... broken one. The beings that direct this world, the Immortals, are curiously the only ones above such inevitability."

Zamidren Book taps his chin, thoughtful. "Also curiously, these immortals have the devotion of the general populace despite condemning everyone to this fate. The Great Work, as we call it, is a means of putting an end to this. A way to abolish death itself, as it were." s> Zamidren stands back up, pacing back and forth in front of the desk. "Understand this, my son. We are shunned by both society and Immortals alike for our practices, both for their own selfish reasons, ignorance, or a combination of the two." He looks thoughtful.

"It is an inevitability, really... It will happen, it's just a question of when and how often. You must watch Divine Outrage and Social Outrage equally and carefully, if you wish to survive outside the Monastery walls." s> Zamidren turns his back to you, looking to be very deep in contemplation. "Now, as you have already discovered, my son, we use rituals to do much of the Great Work. There is no divine or demonic reason for this -- It is simple belief in mortal men, experimentation, focus and knowledge. We can teach several rituals, and are used by simply PERFORMing them." He nods slightly. "Most require knives, and you can pick one up in the Monastery Cloister." s> Zamidren smiles again rather warmly, looking to be in a better mood. "Now, your body has already been permanently altered to perceive Arcane mana, Hoid. This stems from a mixture of other manas, most notably Life, Lunar, and Elemental. The spells we use have been tailored to use this blend of manas." He pauses briefly. "I will say this as a warning. Do not attempt to use Holy mana, for obvious reasons. To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul." s> Zamidren nods slightly. "That is all I have to say to you for now, my son. If you have questions, I can certainly answer some, but I encourage you to begin delving into the Great Work yourself." He heads back behind his desk, picking up an old tome and idly flipping through it. "And I would suggest you begin on the topic of magic."

Zamidren Book nods to you slightly, motioning you up. It appears his lecture is done.

Bone Armor: 1 00% clear (0/34) Light Edged: 1 00% clear (0/34) Arcane Magic: 2 00% clear (0/34) Harness Ability: 2 00% clear (0/34) Power Perceive: 3 00% clear (0/34) Arcana: 1 00% clear (0/34) Targeted Magic: 3 00% clear (0/34) Evasion: 4 00% clear (0/34) Perception: 3 00% clear (0/34) Hiding: 3 00% clear (0/34) Stalking: 3 00% clear (0/34) First Aid: 3 00% clear (0/34) Foraging: 3 00% clear (0/34) Escaping: 2 00% clear (0/34) Skinning: 4 00% clear (0/34) Scholarship: 2 00% clear (0/34) Appraisal: 2 00% clear (0/34) Thanatology: 3 00% clear (0/34)

--Mozzik 12:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC) (Of course this too needs to be cleaned up, just seems a reasonable place to leave it for reference purposes while we decide what to do with it all)

Guild Lore

As this is supposed to be the most RP heavy guild, with the most reprocussions in game due to RP, I have re added the lore section to the guild page as I feel it is important. Xzean 12:46, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Which guild is not an RP heavy guild? I was never aware of the guild choice having an affect on one's level of RP. Simply put about the lore sections...this page is extremely long compared to most of the other guild pages and needs to be shortened. Other topic pages where made for specific lore for that reason.

Also the matter of the guild spoiler has already been discussed further up this talk history. User:BrookieDragon

The guild carries with it mechanical penalties above and beyond any other guild that are meant to reflect the IC stigma associated with being a Necromancer, including potentially forcing them into PvP situations with other players. That said, I think each guild's page should have a lore section, so this is hardly out of place here.

On the issue of the quest spoiler, as I have said, the GMs have explicitly requested that spoilers concerning guild quests not be posted. Now, while the GMs do not have control over content here at Elanthipedia and we could indeed post whatever we feel like, I want to point out that they have on numerous occasions assisted with the project in good faith; through creating their own accounts and editing the wiki themselves, by answering queries on the play.net boards to assist in writing articles, by answering emails with answers to questions and on one notable occasion actually pulling an editor up and giving them a play-by-play of a certain NPC and their associated events just so the information could be made public here. Before you insist upon violating their wishes because we can, I would like you and the other moderators and editors watching this page to consider very honestly whether you want to bite the hand that feeds you. Reene 17:41, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Circle Requirements

Does anyone have the updated cicle requirements to post? User:Shadowscribe

Research

Now that the guild is out, there are several subjects we are still in the dark about. I'll highlight them below, and see if we can't sort this information out.

Social Outrage

How fast does it drain, and is this relative to your divine outrage?

In-town timer

A few days ago, Armifer rolled in a new gauge that limits the time a Necromancer may safely stay in town--the longer you stay unhidden in a justice zone, the more the gauge increases. The gauge is unrelated to your social outrage, but will positively modify the chances of an ACCUSE NECROMANCY being successful, adding up to a 100% chance of success. The gauge rises when you're in a justice zone, and falls when you're out of it. It freezes when you're hidden in a justice zone. How long does it take to fill?

Sorcery and Spell Scrolls

Sorcery spells are cast as our native mana type. Does that mean we aren't at risk of backfiring and losing limbs? Can we permanently learn any sorcery spells? Can we play with Blackfire and Teleological Sorcery? It was specifically stated that holy magic is a bad idea for Necromancers to play with...what does this mean? Is it impossible, or difficult? Does it carry its own set of problems? How does a necromancer's ability to use a cross-discipline spell (such as Zephyr) from a scroll compare to, say, a Moon Mage's?