Talk:Policy:Scripting policy

General Comments

Please keep discussion on this issue to the specific topic of the page title. Other Policy subjects can be discussed on the other appropriate policy pages.

ANYONE CONTRIBUTING TO THE POLICY DISCUSSION PLEASE READ: Do NOT edit or delete anyone else's contribution. Do NOT hold debates or conversations. You CAN edit your own contribution if you think of more to say. Make sure to add a signature to your contribution so it is easier to find. Click the signature button, second from the right at the top of the editing window. Finally... always make sure to preview BEFORE you save! Thanks! --BLADEDBUTTERFLY (talk) 00:37, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

Discussion

Should there be a portion here about not interfering with scripts/bots/etc? In terms of penalties, skill reduction still makes sense, but should the loss of TDPs outside of that skill loss (aka: outright removal of stats) still exist? I don't know if there should be a definitive "you will always be behind until the next respec/stat-wipe in the game" situation. Also wondering if Plat's penalty going straight to 3 is still something that's useful. --TEVESHSZAT (talk) 12:01, 9 October 2016 (CDT)

---

Some of my thoughts on afk scripting since there was a meeting about it recently.

1. I don't want it fully legal, the fallen comes to mind.
2. I don't want it too strict and harsh, the population of plat comes to mind. I think if the majority honestly wanted this full rp environment and no scripting plat would be full of people, but it's not.
3. I think a lot people are not really honest about it, want to stay off the gm radar, or want to gain favoritism with the gms so most discussion I see on it reeks of that. Most people afk script sometimes. Some do it 24/7 (which is bad) and the people complaining I believe are really just frustrated they will never catch up to people good at scripting. I don't really think it has much to do with impacting role playing or making the mud feel dead like they like to claim.
4. I'm very concerned about oversight and fairness if this policy becomes strictly enforced. God forbid a GM would warn one of their favorite players. I'm just being fully candid here.
5. I watch my screen for the most part but I will admit there are times I'm not completely paying attention. If policy was enforced very strictly. I would probably get warned at some point and I would go play another game. I'm not interested in gaining favoritism to avoid gms targeting me for a video game. If I was confident the checks were completely random, which I probably have no way of being, I might be more inclined to stay and take my lumps and adjust accordingly. However, it often felt in the past like certain players were immune from script checks or just were able to pass them even though they were afk. I imagine some have an elaborate system set up for it. I picture all kinds of alarms going off on their phone when they're getting checked. So, what it felt like always ended up happening is the power scripters and serious abusers always got away with it, the gm favorites always got away with it, and the average video game player got completely wrecked.
6. I think there would also be merit and making the game less necessary to script. 50 commands to mind lock a skill sometimes seems excessive. Why do you need 10 tools for forging? Just one example. Why not automate some of it on the backend so you can be afk while not actually typing anything in. Like, braid grass until mind locked. Isn't there some balance to be had here? I think simply going after punishing players with harsh punishments and not doing anything else is going to destroy the player base.
7. The penalties are way too harsh as well. If I got warned, I would cancel and play another game. That's just the way it is. On the flipside, people cancel because they can't keep up with scripters. So give them the ability to keep up with them without having to write such advanced scripts? I know it's such a delicate balance, you don't want it to be too easy.
8. Other ideas I've heard are to implement are xp and loot penalties if you're logged in for exceptionally long periods of time.
9. This would be a fair system. Implement automated script checks, take GM bias out of the equation for AFK scripting purposes. Every day everyone gets at least one script check. Would have to code some new ones to use in the beginning. It's fair but it will never ever happen because we all know it would completely annihilate the player base. That's the reality of the situation and I hope it's considered with whatever is done. I hope the focus is on making automation less appealing rather than punishing people for it.

--JWARK4 (talk) 15:29, 10 October 2016 (CDT)

---

For clarification's sake, scripting is allowed to Plat. I agree that the penalty for getting caught afk scripting is a bit extreme. But scripting is 100% allowed. --TEVESHSZAT (talk) 16:22, 10 October 2016 (CDT)

One of the GMs made a beautiful post on the official forums about how they did lots of AFK checks when they first started, but basically do none now. I think their post (which I can't find a link to) ties into points 4, 5, and 6. Their point was basically A) AFK checks take a while to perform; B) even when they identify an AFKer, there is paperwork; C) there are better places to spend GM time; and D) the root cause is not AFKers, but that the game encourages AFK scripting so much. To point 8, I feel it would unduly impact F2P players. I keep some characters logged in for very long periods of time, but that's a necessity since I don't have offline drain. Build up field exp during the day, then let it drain overnight. SHELTIM (talk) 09:16, 12 October 2016 (CDT)

---

I think this policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other. The current middle ground of being mostly unenforced except against less complex scripts and used as a grudge tool by people is untenable. Given the manpower issues already being faced policy enforcement seems unrealistic and a pointless arms race that alienates paying customers. Doubly so when HLC and plat sales are flourishing. It seems like if anything you'd want more paying customers scripting part of the time for 4 years instead of the HLC they'll buy for a month before getting bored and moving on again. People complain about inflation (both skills and coins) but these problems are there regardless of scripting due to real money sales.

Look at the current state of the game, this is what the game is like with rampant scripting. Removing this policy isn't going to make it more rampant because it's going on already at extreme levels. We're at least a decade out from what this game looked like without extensive and prolonged scripting violations. It seems like we can try and return to that past which is a big financial investment and alienates both caught players and everyone else by making them wait on further delayed development. All this to gamble that it would become a better game (or more profitable from SIMUs perspective). Alternatively we're left accepting the state of things as they are. Cut free the manpower that goes into that now, salvage the dev effort that goes into maintaining TF. Focus on making systems that aren't more rewarding for scripts than manual play. As it is the scripters are paying for accounts and simu coins; they're helping keep the lights on. If they're only ATK 4 hours of every 24 it's still 4 hours with more people in the world to interact with and another face to create the crowd in the city street. (Yes yes, fallacy of the excluded middle, but the policy revamp discussion and GM comments really makes it seem like staying where we are isn't an option.)

There's already no keeping up with the Joneses and what we have now is ProgressQuest crossed with an ADHD test. --SEPED (talk) 12:58, 12 October 2016 (CDT)

+1 SHELTIM (talk) 19:05, 12 October 2016 (CDT)

---

People should remember that the PLAYERS requested the skillcaps constantly be raised - the reason scripting is required is player skills are spread over multiple years or even a decade of character training. If people didn't want this massive gap and time investment, they'd be comfortable with the skill caps being lowered dramatically, and/or the nature of TDPs being changed such that 'train all the skills' wasn't the best way to play.

I'm fine with a complete elimination of the scripting policy so long as its activity is not preventing others from enjoying the game. Since that's a fairly difficult thing to blithely define, just update the policy to reflect as much -

1. Characters have no claims to hunting rooms.
2. Update consent to reflect potential harassment (i.e., following characters and skinning/looting their kills, pointing them, etc.
3. What have you.

Honestly, if the GMs/Devs are angry with the state of AFK scripters, they should incentivize people to do things other than script. That means game events, storylines that move, player interaction that matters. Players are to blame insofar as paying so heavily into revenue events, but the lack of stuff going on means that players fill the time doing something, anything. Given the lack of support for player lead RP events, it's no wonder players are scripting as heavily as they are, let alone the PvP rank disparity issues.

--JHALIASCLERIC (talk) 13:25, 12 October 2016 (CDT)

+1 --Dartellum Waddle, WarMage (talk) 10:53, 13 October 2016 (CDT)

---

Whatever the policy is, there is a huge incentive to scripting AFK. This is how you can advance your character.

Indeed, I dislike the separation of gameplay (actually immersing yourself, talking to people, walking around reading descriptions, etc..) from advancing your character (braid grass, read compendium, observe sky, predict, etc..). I don't think there is any immersion found in repetition of mind numbing tasks. If I overnight script, I can gain 0.25 of a rank in something! If I sit down and actively play the game, I do not advance. It is a system which promotes automation and further, you have a system which advancing is literally typing the same command over and over and over. That said, I don't think you will ever lose the automation, but you can merge the gameplay with advancement and then I will feel less incentive to script and to actually PLAY the game. Please do not punish me for wanting to play the game and also advance my character. --ARCHIMEDIAN (talk) 13:52, 12 October 2016 (CDT)

+1 --Dartellum Waddle, WarMage (talk) 10:53, 13 October 2016 (CDT)

---

The challenge is two fold: time to gain skills and perception. For the first, the game is measured in years. Given this, a new character will never catch up to a character decades old. The need to AFK script to catch up is then realized. Even with AFK scripting, progress is slow and takes year or more. As an example, when I returned from a rest I started forging. Two years later, and not doing AFK scripting, going to the forge and doing workorders I am only in the mid 200s. I am not complaining about that; just showing an example as to why some would AFK script to get to a point where they can make decent weapons, armor, or tools.

The second challenge is perception. No matter what the policy is or is not, some will perceive it as bad. Perception is also why some complain about 'keeping up.' Perception is the most challenging aspect to address. Some have the perception they cannot help in an invasion if they are low level. I am not against AFK scripting as I feel it does not affect my game play and it does not advance one as fast as someone perceives.

As others have stated, the game needs more events to draw people's attention. I know some items toward this are in the works and I applaud the efforts! I play the game because I enjoy it. I do enjoy interactions with others. If they do not answer, I treat them as NPCs and move on. I say remove AFK scripting policy.

--Dartellum Waddle, WarMage (talk) 10:53, 13 October 2016 (CDT)

---