Tailoring player guide: Difference between revisions

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!Initial Volume!!Thickness!!Resulting Volume
!Initial Volume Fibers!!Thickness!!Resulting Volume Thread
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|100||heavy/yarn||40
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20 yards of thread makes 1 yard of cloth. Therefore 100 yards of fiber is equal to 5 yards of fine, 4.25 yards of thin, 3.5 yards of average, 2.75 yards of thick and 2 yards of heavy. Keep in mind that if you use only 100 yards of fiber you will only receive 4 yards of thin, 3 yards of average, and 2 yards of thick because weaving will not result in fractional volumes of cloth. Therefore to maximize your potential the ideal amount of fibers to use will be divisible by 20.<br>
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Surprisingly enough if you can make masterful fine thread using any fibers you can use it on most cloth items. So experiment, and see what you can create masterfully. Now that you have created thread you can use that thread to sew cloth or leather items or you can use it to make cloth.<br>
Surprisingly enough if you can make masterful fine thread using any fibers you can use it on most cloth items. So experiment, and see what you can create masterfully. Now that you have created thread you can use that thread to sew cloth or leather items or you can use it to make cloth.<br>
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====Required Techniques====
====Required Techniques====


The first technique is Leather Tanning Expertise. To get the ability to use {{tt|ARRANGE ALL}} you need to get this tech. In carving (a discipline of engineering) you have basic bone collecting which also gives you {{tt|ARRANGE ALL}} as well. I suspect these will change at some point to allow {{tt|ARRANGE ALL FOR SKIN/PART}} for the leather tanning expertise, and {{tt|ARRANGE ALL FOR BONE/PART}} for basic bone collecting. So eventually you may need both but I guess we will see what happens.<br>
The first technique is Leather Tanning Expertise. To get the ability to use {{tt|ARRANGE ALL}} you need to get this tech. In carving (a discipline of engineering) you have basic bone collecting which also gives you {{tt|ARRANGE ALL}} as well. I suspect these will change at some point to allow {{tt|ARRANGE ALL FOR SKIN/PART}} for the leather tanning expertise, and {{tt|ARRANGE ALL FOR BONE/PART}} for basic bone collecting. So eventually you may need both but I guess we will see what happens. Rangers do need to acquire either technique to perform {{tt|ARRANGE ALL}}, they at one point received this skill as a guild perk but no longer, so you do need one of the two techniques to arrange all.<br>
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The next tech you need is Enhanced Stitching. This allows you to seal cloth and leather armor, which makes it more durable. Along that line you also need Enhanced Rare-Material Stitching to seal rare cloth or rare leather armors. Though in this case you won't need this one right away. It takes a little skill to get where you are able to masterfully make rare-material items.<br>
The next tech you need is Enhanced Stitching. This allows you to seal cloth and leather armor, which makes it more durable. Along that line you also need Enhanced Rare-Material Stitching to seal rare cloth or rare leather armors. Though in this case you won't need this one right away. It takes a little skill to get where you are able to masterfully make rare-material items.<br>
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|Push||ready to be pushed
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|Push||the pattern is uneven and off by one
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|Cast||The garment is nearly complete and now must be cast off
|Cast||The garment is nearly complete and now must be cast off
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====Reinforcing (Added Protection)====
====Reinforcing (Added Protection)====


Reinforcing increases protection, hindrance, and weight. Chapter 1 of the tailoring book has a page for reinforcing cloth or leather armor. It doesn't matter if it's common material or rare material. You must be at the right page in chapter 1 to reinforce armor. Study the book at the right page. Then take out the item and scissors and do the command 1 ({{tt|cut my item with my scissors}}). Then you {{tt|ANALYZE MY [ITEM]}} on step 2 and proceed based on the messages produced. Note you can {{tt|ANALYZE}} the item at each step after you do step 1 and find out what's going on.<br>
Reinforcing increases protection, hindrance, and weight*. Chapter 1 of the tailoring book has a page for reinforcing cloth or leather armor. It doesn't matter if it's common material or rare material. You must be at the right page in chapter 1 to reinforce armor. Study the book at the right page. Then take out the item and scissors and do the command 1 ({{tt|cut my item with my scissors}}). Then you {{tt|ANALYZE MY [ITEM]}} on step 2 and proceed based on the messages produced. Note you can {{tt|ANALYZE}} the item at each step after you do step 1 and find out what's going on.<br>
#{{tt|cut my item with my scissors}}: starts process
#{{tt|cut my item with my scissors}}: starts process
#{{tt|analyze my item}}
#{{tt|analyze my item}}
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'''Important Note:''' Weight increase is always 125% truncated. Reinforced Wight = Trunc(Base weight + Base weight * 0.25)
For common leather and cloth reinforcing does not help the stats of the armor so you're better off just making the item and sealing it. However, this is not true for making shields. Shields reinforced do change the stats for any material used and sealing makes it more durable.


====Lightening (Reduces Weight)====
====Lightening (Reduces Weight)====
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From some of the experiments I've done, making an armor and sealing it for work orders pays better than simply making the armor. I'm not sure if reinforcing or lightening the armor will up the price you get for the work order as well but seal does appear to raise the price you get on the work order.
From some of the experiments I've done, making an armor and sealing it for work orders pays better than simply making the armor. I'm not sure if reinforcing or lightening the armor will up the price you get for the work order as well but seal does appear to raise the price you get on the work order.


{{Cat|Player Guides,Crafting Player Guides}}
{{Cat|Player guides,New player guides,Crafting player guides}}

Latest revision as of 13:01, 1 August 2024

For those that don't know a sewing needle from a knitting needle.

Outfitting is a craft that consists of three disciplines: tailoring, artistry, and jewelry making. (Only tailoring has been released; the other two have yet to be implemented.) Tailoring itself consists of three areas: working cloth, knitting, and working leather. So this part of outfitting will consist of a complete explanation of the Tailoring part of outfitting.

Required Instructions and Tools

Instructions

The first thing you need is a book of tailoring instructions from the tailoring society. (The Crossing Outfitting Society is three blocks south of the Bards' Guild. There is also a Riverhaven Outfitting Society.) I suggest you buy the journeyman tailoring book if you can afford it. If you can't afford it right away, get the apprentice tailoring book. (Once you have about 200 ranks in outfitting, you will need to upgrade to the journeyman book anyway.)

Tools

Below are the tools used in tailoring.

Tool Used In Craftable?
distaff cloth and leather
pins cloth and leather
scissors cloth and leather blacksmithing
sewing needles cloth and leather blacksmithing
slickstone cloth and leather carving
yardstick cloth and leather blacksmithing
awl leather blacksmithing
lotion leather
scraper leather blacksmithing
skinning knife leather
knitting needles knitting blacksmithing

The best available crafted tools will cost between 12-18 plat each. On the other hand, if you find a blacksmith (forging) with 200-300 skill you can get the basic tools for whole lot less, and they will do just as well. The slickstone can be made by a carver (engineering) with 100 skill and be just fine for use. The pins are sold by outfitting societies, but the festivals have sold pins that are far superior to the society-bought pins.

Raw Materials

Now tailoring consists of understanding thread, cloth, yarn, and leather so you can work the items you need to work at the quality needed. Most folks including starting folks can use the society-bought yarn that is wool yarn. And until you can make the wool yarn masterful yourself, you might as well use the society-bought yarn. The cloth can be bought at the society or won playing games at fests or made from thread you spin and weave yourself. Rare cloths so far have only appeared in quests or at festivals. Note in the table below I do not give density of the cloth. This is because when you make cloth it can be of the following types fine/thin/average/thick/heavy, which will produce a different density of cloth. The basic cloths are as follows:

Property Burlap Wool Linen Cotten Silk
durability 60 80 65 70 60
workability 70 60 50 40 20
electrical 45 65 30 30 35
thermal 35 65 50 50 50
physical 85 75 80 80 85


For a complete list of cloth properties, see Crafting Materials: Outfitting

When you start out using cloth for making cloth items, you want to use a cloth with high workability. This means the two cloths to start out with would be burlap and wool. Using a cloth that is too difficult for you to work with usually results in poor quality. Poorly made items will suffer a loss in stats compared to a well made version of the same item. So do yourself a favor, start out with cloth you can use on the items you want to make. That way you will create items with high enough quality to satisfy work orders and train you.

Making Cloth

Next is thread and yarn. Thread is really important to both cloth items and leather items. You use fine thread for cloth items when you sew them, and you use thick thread for leather items when you make them. However, as a beginner, it's sometimes better to use average thread, as it is much easier to make and it tends to work for both cloth and leather.

First you can use a distaff, STUDY MY DISTAFF will give you all the information you need to know about using a distaff). The distaff will use 100 yards of fiber to make thread and can be used any place you're at. Note if you buy fiber and it's not 100 yards, COMBINE two of them to make it 100 yards or as close as you can. Or you can go into the outfitting society building and use a spinning wheel. (STUDY WHEEL will give you info on how to use it.) The spinning wheel will use 400 yards of fiber to make thread. Below is a table that gives you an example of how much thread is made per each 100 yards of fiber you use. Note - when you put fiber on the distaff or wheel, you can then adjust distaff/wheel to fine/thin/average/thick/heavy/yarn to get the thread you want to create.

Early in your career, you can spin fiber into thread and then convert thread to cloth and learn a significant amount of outfitting without ever making anything but cloth. Note jute fiber makes burlap and flax fiber makes linen; all the other fibers are self-explanatory.

Initial Volume Fibers Thickness Resulting Volume Thread
100 fine 100
100 thin 85
100 average 70
100 thick 55
100 heavy/yarn 40


20 yards of thread makes 1 yard of cloth. Therefore 100 yards of fiber is equal to 5 yards of fine, 4.25 yards of thin, 3.5 yards of average, 2.75 yards of thick and 2 yards of heavy. Keep in mind that if you use only 100 yards of fiber you will only receive 4 yards of thin, 3 yards of average, and 2 yards of thick because weaving will not result in fractional volumes of cloth. Therefore to maximize your potential the ideal amount of fibers to use will be divisible by 20.

Surprisingly enough if you can make masterful fine thread using any fibers you can use it on most cloth items. So experiment, and see what you can create masterfully. Now that you have created thread you can use that thread to sew cloth or leather items or you can use it to make cloth.

You can also buy 100 yards of average thickness cotton thread from the society building and this works just fine for completing work orders. I actually recommend making your own thread, especially if you can make it masterfully though.

To make cloth you need to use a loom in the society building. (STUDY LOOM gives you information on how to use it.) Making cloth requires two bundles of thread that are of the same size. Let's say you use average thread and create two thread of 70 yards, using 2 threads of 70 yards will create 7 yards of cloth using average thread on the loom. Two 100 yards threads make 10 yards of cloth.

Remember ,with two cloths of the same type in each hand you can COMBINE them or you can MARK CLOTH AT # YARDS (# being the number of yards you want to take off) and use your scissors to CUT it. Marking and cutting will also work with fibers and thread, so you can always be sure to use exactly what you need to use. 100 yards of cloth or less can be deeded and put into a deed register for later use.

Skills and Techniques

Skill Requirements

In general if you do at least three items at your skill level or one above your skill level you will probably lock the skill. The table below will illustrate that. If an item in the book is called extremely easy for instance. That means from 0 to 100 skill you will learn with it. Once over that the tier 1 stuff will not teach much. You can do anything masterfully that matches your skill and learn from it well. Once an item becomes too easy, you stop learning much from it at all.

Basically, as you go up in skill your range of learning from items goes up as well. The easier stuff you can still do masterfully, but you won't learn much from doing so. The material used also plays a part. While at 0 ranks, you do tier 1 with silk you are probably going to ruin the item and may not learn much from doing so, but use a easier material (high workability) like burlap and you will complete the job well. In the table below the ~ sign means approximately.

The second number is where that skill is with certain techs, and right now I don't know exactly what techs will give you those numbers. I have checked everything to tier 5 with no techs at all, and those numbers appear really accurate. Now the way to use this table is as follows. Let's say you have 0 skill. That means you can probably do Tier 1 (extremely easy and that's how it shows in the tailoring book) close to masterful and tier 2 (very easy) jobs, but tier 3 will probably be a ruined item with little experience. Let's say you have 150 skill, that means you can do tier 1 masterfully but probably won't learn much from it. You will need to do tier 2, tier 3, or tier 4 items to learn. (You wouldn't complete tier 4 masterfully, and that would probably teach the best.) Tier 5 would be too difficult.

Tier Difficulty Base Ranks Ranks With Techs
1 extremely easy 25 ~18
2 very easy 50 ~36
3 easy 100 ~71
4 simple 200 ~143
5 basic 300 ~214
6 somewhat challenging 425 ~304
7 challenging 550 ~368
8 complicated 700 ~500
9 intricate 850 ~607
10 difficult 1175 ~839
11 very difficult 1400 850-950
12 extremely difficult 1500 900-1200

Tailoring Techniques

Most tailoring techniques simply reduce the amount of skill that is needed to perform certain tasks, so they are not needed if you have enough skill. However, there are some armor things that cannot be done without certain techniques. These will be discussed below.

You do not need to choose a career or hobby to train outfitting or create items. The choice of career or hobby is permanent, so do not choose until you are absolutely certain.

Required Techniques

The first technique is Leather Tanning Expertise. To get the ability to use ARRANGE ALL you need to get this tech. In carving (a discipline of engineering) you have basic bone collecting which also gives you ARRANGE ALL as well. I suspect these will change at some point to allow ARRANGE ALL FOR SKIN/PART for the leather tanning expertise, and ARRANGE ALL FOR BONE/PART for basic bone collecting. So eventually you may need both but I guess we will see what happens. Rangers do need to acquire either technique to perform ARRANGE ALL, they at one point received this skill as a guild perk but no longer, so you do need one of the two techniques to arrange all.

The next tech you need is Enhanced Stitching. This allows you to seal cloth and leather armor, which makes it more durable. Along that line you also need Enhanced Rare-Material Stitching to seal rare cloth or rare leather armors. Though in this case you won't need this one right away. It takes a little skill to get where you are able to masterfully make rare-material items.

Then Tailored Craft Enhancement is required to be able lighten or reinforce cloth or leather armors.

Techniques That Help

Next are techniques that can help you do your work. Fabric Specialization allows you to use lower quality materials without it affecting you as much. Threadcraft Theory allows you to make mistakes and not have it affect the product as badly and allows you to use inferior tools a lot better. Weaving Acumen provides a big increase to speed in completing projects. Beyond these, the three techs to maintain and repair cloth and leather armors grant you the ability to repair your own armor rather than taking it to a leather repair shop. These are Basic Tailoring Repair, Advanced Tailoring Repair, and Tailored Equipment Maintenance. Beyond this all techs you get just help you do things sooner than you would normally be able to do them. They are not absolutely necessary.

Creating Items

Knitting

OK first thing we will start off with is knitting. For learning outfitting through knitting you will need knitting needles, yarn, and a tailoring book. All knitting items are listed it chapter 5, so pick something according to your skill in the table just above. I think the first four things you can do in tailoring knitting in chapter 5 of the book are the ankleband, armband, socks and napkin. Note that there are no knitted armors.

It's really easy to do, does not require many tools, and you can learn outfitting with it for quite a long time even with no techs. The first thing to do is TURN your book to the right page and STUDY the book. Then you get the knitting needles out of your container, then get the yarn out of your container (make sure you have enough yarn for the task). Then you use command 1 (KNIT MY YARN WITH MY NEEDLES), put the remaining yarn back in the container, and respond to messages as you proceed.

Command 1 (KNIT MY YARN WITH MY NEEDLES) is only done one time to get you started. The last command (CAST MY NEEDLES) is the last thing you do to finish the task. Note after each command you can ANALYZE MY ITEM and get the next step to be taken. Knitting consists of the following commands:

  • KNIT MY YARN WITH MY NEEDLES
  • KNIT MY NEEDLES
  • TURN MY NEEDLES
  • PUSH MY NEEDLES
  • CAST MY NEEDLES

So depending on the messages you get those are the commands you do. The messages that cause you to do a command are as follows:

Required Action Messaging
Turn Now the needles must be turned
Turn Some ribbing should be added
Push Next the needles must be pushed
Push ready to be pushed
Push the pattern is uneven and off by one
Cast The garment is nearly complete and now must be cast off
Knit none of the above messages


So you can see it's actually very simple.

Cloth and Leather Items

Next we have cloth and leather work! Cloth work is found in chapters 1 through 4 of the tailoring book. Chapters 6 through 10 deal with leather work.

Chapter 1 deals with making cloth paddings that are used to reinforce or add to things. (Other than cloth and leather armor, most things don't require padding.) The paddings you buy in the society are not actually 99 quality; they work just fine for most things, but if you can make your own padding at 99 quality, you actually improve the item you're making. When I started out I just bought the paddings and in fact to save time I still do.

Chapter 2 is decorative wear such as shirts, pants, etc. Chapter 3 is cloth containers. There are no leather containers other than a weapon strap. Chapter 4 is the cloth armors.

Chapter 6 talks about basic leather work including sealing etc. Chapter 7 is leather decorative wear, such as shirts and pants made from leather. Chapter 8 is leather containers and accessories (limited to weapon straps for now). Chapter 9 is leather armor. Chapter 10 is leather shields.

Working cloth and leather is an exercise in sewing just like using leather. The messages you get for both are slightly different in only one aspect. With leather you can get messages to use the awl to poke proper holes in the leather; you never get that using cloth.

The first step is to study your book (right chapter and page for the item). I also suggest you have the cloth cut to the right size for your project. This is done by taking cloth, MARK CLOTH AT # YARDS, Then getting scissors and CUT MY CLOTH WITH MY SCISSORS. Make sure your sewing needles have a good length of thread on them (PUT THREAD ON MY NEEDLES). To remove thread from needles you PULL MY NEEDLES. To check thread on your needles you COUNT MY THREAD. I have used 300 yards of thread on the needles, and it lasts for quite a bit of sewing. (The maximum is 400 yards.)

Then you get the cloth and scissors out for the project and do command 1 (CUT MY CLOTH WITH MY SCISSORS). That is the only time the first command is used. The commands that follow are in response to the messages received (also note after each command you can ANALYZE MY [ITEM] and see the next step). One last item.

  1. CUT MY CLOTH WITH MY SCISSORS: starts process
  2. PUSH MY ITEM WITH MY NEEDLE
  3. MEASURE MY ITEM WITH MY YARDSTICK
  4. CUT MY ITEM WITH MY SCISSORS
  5. POKE MY ITEM WITH MY PINS
  6. POKE MY ITEM WITH MY AWL
  7. RUB MY ITEM WITH MY SLICKSTONE
  8. ASSEMBLE MY ITEM WITH MY SMALL PADDING
  9. ASSEMBLE MY ITEM WITH MY LARGE PADDING
  10. ASSEMBLE MY ITEM WITH MY HANDLE
  11. ASSEMBLE MY ITEM WITH MY LONG CORD


A note on the above commands. The handle and long cord are only used with shields made from leather. The small and large paddings can be used for most of the rest of the armors. After an assemble, you always get the needles out of your container and PUSH MY [ITEM] WITH MY NEEDLE. Then continue until you're done with your project. If you are simply making clothing or containers, you will not use padding, handles, or cords.

Now the messages that change what the next step is are as follows:

Required Action Messaging
measure with yardstick dimensions appear to have shifted and could benefit from some remeasuring
cut with scissors With the measuring complete, now it is time to cut away more
poke with pins and could use some pins to
rub with slickstone deep crease develops along
rub with slickstone wrinkles from all the handling and could use
poke item with awl One leather piece is too thick for the needle to penetrate
poke item with awl A critical section of leather needs holes punched
assemble small padding You need another finished small cloth padding
assemble large padding You need another finished large cloth padding
assemble shield handle You need another finished leather shield handle
assemble long cord You need another finished long leather cord
push item with needle if none of the above appear or after an assembly
nothing (you're done) You cannot figure out how to do that
nothing (you're done) You realize that cannot be repaired, and stop
nothing (you're done) not damaged enough to
nothing (you're done) Applying the final touches, you complete working


So sewing as you can see is a bit more complicated.

Cloth and Leather Armor

The last part of tailoring is sealing, reinforcing, or lightening. You can seal and reinforce cloth or leather armor, or you can seal and lighten cloth or leather armor, but you can't lighten and reinforce the same piece.

Sealing (Added Durability)

Sealing will make the armor you make more durable. This lengthens the time armor can go without needing repairs. Chapter 1 of the tailoring book has a page for normal sealing and rare material sealing. You must study the right page in chapter 1 to seal a cloth armor, leather armor or shield. First you study the book at the right page. Second get the item to be sealed out. The you follow the commands in order until you get the finished message. Note you can analyze the item at each step after the first command and find out what is next.

  1. APPLY MY WAX TO MY [ITEM]
  2. RUB MY [ITEM] WITH MY SLICKSTONE


Basically you apply wax, then rub it in with the slickstone, then apply wax and then rub it in again. At some point when applying wax you will get a finished message.

  • You cannot figure out
  • material shows improved signs of durability and wear resistance


If a "done" message does not show, use the slickstone. The done message should appear after you apply wax.

Reinforcing (Added Protection)

Reinforcing increases protection, hindrance, and weight*. Chapter 1 of the tailoring book has a page for reinforcing cloth or leather armor. It doesn't matter if it's common material or rare material. You must be at the right page in chapter 1 to reinforce armor. Study the book at the right page. Then take out the item and scissors and do the command 1 (CUT MY ITEM WITH MY SCISSORS). Then you ANALYZE MY [ITEM] on step 2 and proceed based on the messages produced. Note you can ANALYZE the item at each step after you do step 1 and find out what's going on.

  1. CUT MY ITEM WITH MY SCISSORS: starts process
  2. ANALYZE MY ITEM
  3. PUSH MY ITEM WITH MY NEEDLE
  4. MEASURE MY ITEM WITH MY YARDSTICK
  5. CUT MY ITEM WITH MY SCISSORS
  6. POKE MY ITEM WITH MY PINS
  7. POKE MY ITEM WITH MY AWL: only used for leather
  8. ASSEMBLE MY ITEM WITH MY LARGE PADDING


Notice after each command if an end message is not received you go back to command 2 (ANALYZE MY ITEM). You will notice all reinforcing is done with large padding. The messages you can get are as follows:

Required Action Messaging
use needle pushing it with a needle and thread
use yardstick dimensions changed while working on it, and further progress would be benefited by remeasuring
use scissors Additional scissor cuts are required
use scissors ready for further cutting with some scissors
use scissors Some scissor cuts must be made to the
use pins is in need of pinning to help arrange the material
use awl an awl to add these holes
use awl requires some holes punched
assemble padding is ready to be reinforced with some large cloth padding
get more thread The last of your thread is used up
nothing (you're done) to be a type of finished


Important Note: Weight increase is always 125% truncated. Reinforced Wight = Trunc(Base weight + Base weight * 0.25)

Lightening (Reduces Weight)

Lightening armor will reduce weight but not protection or hindrance. Chapter 1 of the tailoring book has a page for lightening cloth or leather armor. It doesn't matter if it's common material or rare material. You must be at the right page in chapter 1 to lighten armor. STUDY the book at the right page. Then you get the item and scissors and do the command 1 (CUT MY ITEM WITH MY SCISSORS). Then you ANALYZE MY [ITEM] on step 2 and proceed based on the messages produced. Note you can ANALYZE the item at each step after you do step 1 and find out what's going on.

  1. CUT MY ITEM WITH MY SCISSORS
  2. ANALYZE MY ITEM
  3. PUSH MY ITEM WITH MY NEEDLE
  4. MEASURE MY ITEM WITH MY YARDSTICK
  5. CUT MY ITEM WITH MY SCISSORS
  6. POKE MY ITEM WITH MY PINS
  7. POKE MY ITEM WITH MY AWL


After each command, if an end message is not received, you go back to command 2 (ANALYZE MY ITEM). You will notice all lightening is basically done with scissors removing material and re-sewing things. The messages you can get are as follows:

Required Action Messaging
use needle pushing it with a needle and thread
use yardstick dimensions changed while working on it, and further progress would be benefited by remeasuring
use scissors Additional scissor cuts are required
use scissors ready for further cutting with some scissors
use scissors Some scissor cuts must be made to the
use pins is in need of pinning to help arrange the material
use awl an awl to add these holes
use awl requires some holes punched
get more thread The last of your thread is used up
nothing (you're done) to be a type of finished

Work Orders

When doing work orders you might get cloth, leather, or knitting, as all those areas will have something you are capable of doing. If you don't like the work order you got, just ask for another one. To my knowledge there is no limit to how many times you can ask for a different work order.

If you just want to learn without doing work orders, pick something at your level, and work on it.

One other note. I seem to get better payout from doing work orders for knitting when using the yarn you buy even though the yarn I make is actually better. I'm not certain why this is, but it's something worth noting.

From some of the experiments I've done, making an armor and sealing it for work orders pays better than simply making the armor. I'm not sure if reinforcing or lightening the armor will up the price you get for the work order as well but seal does appear to raise the price you get on the work order.