Nefis/Logs/20220911 Ethics Magic Sorcery

[Gorbesh Fortress, Practice Yard]
The ground in this open square is trampled flat, though a few dead tree trunks are still standing. Ragged target dummies with crude faces drawn on are tied in nooses from a wooden beam. You also see a narrow ladder, a wooden gate with a pure white stone on it, a low beechwood cart with several things on it and a makeshift pavilion with several mismatched chairs and a rickety table beneath it.
Also here: Newswoman Navesi, Tempest Knight Saragos who has a stony visage, Heretic Agalea, Lady Knight Elurora and Lord of Elamiri Gridaksma.
Obvious paths: east, southeast, south, southwest.

Agalea says to Elurora, "Mean can be very cute."

You take a moment to look for everybody in the area and see Newswoman Navesi, Tempest Knight Saragos who has a stony visage, Heretic Agalea, Lady Knight Elurora and Lord of Elamiri Gridaksma.

Elurora flashes a wide grin at Agalea.

You gaze at Navesi.

You gaze at Saragos.

You say, "I'm surprised by you two's attendance, in all honesty."

Agalea says to you, "Wonders never cease I guess."

Saragos says, "You said you were open to rigorous debate, so I figured I would take you at your word."

You nod.

Gridaksma chuckles.

Elurora takes a sip of her chocolate.

Agalea takes a bite of the rose.

You say, "We still have some minutes left. Feel free to acquire refreshments. I believe they have some over there."

You point south.

You say, "Or here...as it seems."

Elurora says, "And on there."

Elurora points at a low beechwood cart.

You point at a low beechwood cart.

Elurora nods to you.

You nod to Elurora.

You smile.

Elurora giggles.

You say, "And always a pleasure to see such staunch supporters of Ilithi in attendance."

You nod to Gridaksma.

Elurora takes a sip of her chocolate.

You nod to Elurora.

Elurora gives you a slight curtsy, barely more than a quick bob.

Navesi says to you, "My husband wanted to come. And the truth is, we can't kill each other, not truly. Sometimes it might be worthwhile to talk, or listen. But don't take this to mean any form of support or acceptance of your practices."

Agalea giggles a little oddly.

Agalea says, "Oh, food."

You say to Navesi, "Thats all well and good. This evening isn't even about necromancy, truthfully."

Heretic Agalea scampers south.

Gridaksma asks, "We can't kill each other?"

Navesi asks, "The effort involved would be awfully great, don't you think?"

Gridaksma bows his head, acknowledging you.

Saragos asks you, "Have you specific topics planned?"

Navesi glances at Gridaksma.

Heretic Agalea just arrived.

Navesi says, "To enact a true, permanent death."

You say, "I do. And its to be a three part series."

Lady Knight Elurora goes south.

Lady Knight Elurora just arrived.

Elurora joins Gridaksma's group.

You say, "The last of which will be specific case studies in history."

Coshivi's Son Rakeklis came through a wooden gate.

Agalea takes a bite of the sorbet.

Gridaksma says, "It isn't something I've needed to do lately."

Elurora blinks at Rakeklis.

Agalea says to Elurora something in Ilithic.

Navesi raises an eyebrow in Rakeklis's direction.

Elurora says to Agalea, "I'm not sure he does."

Navesi asks Rakeklis, "Do you need directions to a clothier, sir?"

Saragos asks you, "Is it intended to be a real debate, or just lead everyone down the path of your logic to the conclusion you want?"

Saragos gives you a crooked grin.

Rakeklis sighs.

Rakeklis assesses his combat situation.

Gridaksma says to Saragos, "I doubt he would use the same heavy handed tactics of your side."

Rakeklis puts his ouroboros in his enshrouding clouds.

You ask Saragos, "Lets just wait and see, shall we?"

Saragos nods to you.

Navesi says to Rakeklis, "Ah, I see. Pesky magic at times."

Arcane Malcontent Nsar came through a wooden gate.

Nsar gets an ichor drenched prayer tapestry embroidered with the image of a slender woman from inside his multi-strapped carryall.

Agalea gently touches her ring, running her fingers along the vengeance ruby it holds.

Nsar reverently lays his prayer tapestry at his feet, smoothing out its corners.

Nsar sits down on the prayer tapestry.

Agalea takes a bite of the sorbet.

Elurora takes off an unadorned ebonwood pilgrim's badge.

Elurora puts on an unadorned ebonwood pilgrim's badge.

Agalea says, "The best form of debate is when no one cares to convince someone else of anything. They just speak their side and leave it at that."

Elurora smiles at Agalea.

Navesi says, "Certainly we've no hope of convincing each other of much of anything."

Saragos says to Agalea, "Which, I think, is what we have here."

Saragos nods to Navesi.

You say, "I might add, this is not necessarily a debate with myself, so much as a debate about the subject. If I have a point to add, I will. But The idea is for everyone to get involved based on their stances."

Agalea says, "There are many things that I don't agree on that Nefis believes."

Agalea shrugs.

Navesi asks Elurora, "I've been gone some time. Did you marry that young woman I saw you with?"

Saragos nods to Xelten.

Xelten nods politely.

You glance up at the sky.

Navesi nods politely to Xelten.

Saragos nods to Mazrian.

Mazrian nods to Saragos.

Agalea says, "We do not have to agree on everything. We just respect each other enough to not me mad about things."

Mazrian joins Saragos's group.

You say, "Looks to be about the appointed anlas."

Elurora says to Navesi, "Miss Bel? No, we're much too young to think about that at this point. We're good holding hands and going on picnics."

Elurora smiles at Navesi.

Navesi nods to Elurora.

You take a moment to look for everybody in the area and see Mazrian, Xelten, Arcane Malcontent Nsar who is sitting, Coshivi's Son Rakeklis, Lady Knight Elurora, Heretic Agalea, Newswoman Navesi, Tempest Knight Saragos who has a stony visage and Lord of Elamiri Gridaksma.

You clear your throat.

Navesi says to Elurora, "Well congratulations anyway, on finding such companionship."

Elurora smiles at Navesi.

Mazrian asks Elurora, "Oh, who is the lucky person?"

Elurora says to Navesi, "Thank you, Miss, I feel very lucky she likes me back."

Navesi smiles at Elurora.

Elurora says to Mazrian, "Miss Claribel."

Agalea adjusts her meshor fox tail.

Mazrian says, "Well done, then."

Mazrian smiles.

Logarithmancer Zorthuric came through a wooden gate.

Logarithmancer Zorthuric goes east.

Elurora says to Mazrian, "It's more her doing really."

You say, "At the Town Hall meetings, there has been some talk about making Shard a center for academic excellence. I would be remiss if I didnt take the first step since it was my suggestion."

Saragos says to Agalea, "Well, normally I would make no promises not to be mad, but usually that anger comes from dashed hopes. In this, I have no hope of convincing anyone, so walking away the same as we started is about what I'd expect."

You say, "With that being said, Good evening and welcome to the inaugural discussion on Ethics in Modern spellcasting."

Veteran Apprentice Anuril's group came through a wooden gate.

Anuril bows to Mazrian.

Anuril respectfully says to Mazrian, "Halipa."

Elurora smiles at you.

Mazrian dryly says to Elurora, "With time, you find that in life a win is a win."

Saragos nods to Anuril.

Mazrian smiles at Elurora.

Mazrian dryly says to Anuril, "Write that down."

Elurora gazes thoughtfully at Mazrian.

Constantia chuckles.

Anuril gives Mazrian a slight nod.

Saragos snorts at Mazrian.

Kethrai jots down some notes.

You say, "No good academic discussion begins without some inspiring quote."

Anuril gets a fat orange book with clouds painted on the cover from inside his farandine mantle.

Logarithmancer Zorthuric just arrived.

Agalea grins, revealing her dimples.

You say, ""With every dusky moonbeam and with e'ry revolution, Magick is our signpost, our method Evolution."

Anuril jots down some notes.

Constantia nods to Zorthuric.

Elurora furrows her brow.

You say, "These were the words spoken by Erzebet Crowther as she took her place upon the moon mage council and of her ancestor, Alicia Crowther, upon the signing of the Lunar Accord."

Anuril closes his orange book, hooking back the latch.

Anuril puts his book in his leather haversack.

You say, "It is hard to imagine truer words than these."

Court Mage Miskton came through a wooden gate.

Elurora shifts her weight.

You say, "Magic has integrated itself into many aspects of modern life, from transportation and protection, to healing and business."

You say, "It is difficult to imagine life now without it. Our society has evolved to rely on magic."

Zorthuric nods to Constantia.

You say, "Magic is, ultimately, about accruing power. Power over yourself, the elements. Power over the future; the very world that exists around you. But this power does not come cheaply."

You say, "Magic can be extremely dangerous. There are spells, effects, and energies that can be incredibly destructive."

Zorthuric takes a sip of his wine.

Mazrian appears to be whispering to those in his company.

You say, "And as it has become overwhelmingly prevalent in the modern age, it is about time we begin to look at it from an ethical standpoint."

Anuril raises an eyebrow.

Anuril takes a sip of his wine.

You say, "However, as a disclaimer, this is not intended to be a rationalization of necromancy. I believe many of us have strong opinions on that matter as a whole."

You say, "If someone wishes to bring it up, we can discuss it as a case study at a later event."

Anuril casually observes the area.

You say, "This preliminary discussion is more about magic use as a whole."

Elurora leans against a low beechwood cart.

Elurora takes a sip of her chocolate.

Agalea traces an outline around an enticing wasp-waisted corset fashioned from shadesatin and night diamonds.

You say, "Throughout the ages, the idea of magical regulation has very rarely been addressed."

You say, "The formation of the guilds is probably the most well-known effort in this area."

Elurora chews on her lip, looking deep in concentration.

Anuril gives a slight nod.

You say, "This is followed by provincial bans on the use of sorcery."

You say, "Beyond that, spellcasters have, for the most part, been left to their own devices in deciding what ethical magic use means."

You say, "This has led to several situations that could be considered improper use, or at least irresponsible methodology, in the application of magical theories and spells."

Mazrian whispers something to Anuril.

You say, "Some of these we will address in the coming months as case studies."

Anuril gives Mazrian a slight nod.

You say, "Today, though, I wish to address one of the primary issues in ethical Spellcasting: Sorcery."

Elurora tilts her head, clearly curious about something.

You say, "It is a delicate topic, to be sure. I would be surprised if there were any individual here who have not fallen on the wrong side of the law in the use of these "forbidden magics."

Elurora clears her throat.

Elurora says, "I have not."

You smile at Elurora.

Nsar chuckles.

You say, "Then color me surprised."

Nsar sarcastically says, "How quaint."

Navesi says, "Nor have I."

Elurora glances at Nsar.

Anuril says, "Nor Kethrai."

Kethrai says, "Nor I..."

Anuril nods to Kethrai.

Agalea giggles a little oddly.

You say, "Ah, so we have a few purists here...that should drive some debate in a few minutes then."

Kethrai says, "Well. There was that one time with that Clear Vision runestone."

Anuril pats Tylanni on the back.

Elurora asks Nsar, "Does it pain you have so many of us 'quaint' folks around?"

Kethrai shakes his fist!

Xelten says, "Nor have I ever been arrested for such a thing."

Mazrian says, "Nor I."

Mazrian shrugs.

You chuckle.

Anuril casually observes the area.

Saragos says to you, "If you'll forgive me, you've already got a tilt there. There's nothing written on the tin as soon as you gain attunement that there's a moral imperative to seek power - it's just there. A tool. If it's about accruing power, that's on you."

Tylanni folds his arms across his chest.

Saragos says, "No Sorcery for me, though."

You say, "I find it interesting the choice of words..."

Gridaksma says, "Some likely because they were not caught."

Nsar says to Elurora, "I always marvel at the ineptitude of the masses and their ability to willingly shroud themselves from knowledge sitting beyond the tips of their nose so, no, I feel no pain in your or anyone elses presence."

You nod to Saragos.

Nsar smiles at Elurora.

You say to Saragos, "I will respond to that in a moment."

Agalea says to Gridaksma, "Well, you said it. I didn't have too."

Agalea gently adjusts the swaying vines of her vine cloak. They settle more comfortably against her.

You clear your throat.

You say, "Historically speaking, there is no record of when it was decided that sorcerous magic would be illegal, but 1100 years ago a woman by the name of Tezirah Eilsina was put to death in Zoluren over her practice of it."

You say, "I think it's safe to say that opinions on the matter have changed drastically since then."

You say, "The question then lies in why was its use so frowned upon then as opposed to now? The practice is still illegal, though the penalty has significantly decreased."

Mazrian dryly says, "Tezirah was doing much more than casting Zephyr off runes, surely we agree."

Gridaksma says, "It also depends on who and where you are too."

Anuril nods to Mazrian.

You ask, "And yet, this proves little barrier for nearly any spellcaster in the modern age. Have we merely cast aside the ethics of this issue, or have provincial laws just lagged behind in modern adjustments in magic use?"

Elurora says to Nsar, "I think I can have beliefs that you find quaint and still learn. Not wanting to harm innocents is hardly a unique idea."

Saragos says to you, "As far as I'm aware, the first documented persecution of Sorcerors was the Blackfire Cabal around 5000 years ago."

You nod to Saragos.

Navesi says, "There's also a difference among the feelings of the common folk and the guilded class."

Kethrai gives Navesi a slight nod.

You ask, "You'l likely be more knowledgeable about that than myself....but lets explore the topic, shall we?"

Anuril nods to Navesi.

Anuril takes a sip of his wine.

You ask Saragos, "To address your position about magic being power. Has it not given you capability beyond a commoner to change things you feel are necessary?"

You say, "Otherwise, why even use it, if not for the power to change what is to what you want it to be."

Saragos says to you, "Sure. But that's a choice I made, and the consequences are on my head. No voice from on high demanded that I become powerful."

You say, "And yet, you still made the decision to pursue magic...to gain that power."

You shrug.

Agalea traces an outline around a twilight-hued wildlace garter decorated with piquant bloodlace fringe.

You ask, "But the nature of magic is not really what I wanted to debate. But sorcery and its use? Should it still be a forbidden practice?"

Agalea says, "Power is always the goal. The type of power, well that is something that is entirely up to the one seeking it. It could be political power, it could be physical power, or it could be magical power."

Saragos nods to you.

Agalea says, "THe persuit of power is at the center of life and is everyones motivation."

Elurora quietly asks, "Does the reason you want the power matter in that then?"

Agalea says to Elurora, "Sometimes."

Saragos asks, "Well, let me ask a question for you all... would you not agree that Sorcery CAN be dangerous both to the self and others? Not that it always is, but it CAN?"

Anuril says to Agalea, "I don't think it is -everyone's- motivation."

You nod to Saragos.

Saragos says, "Because if we can't agree on that, we have to go back way farther."

You say to Saragos, "Just as surely as any tool can."

Agalea says, "Sorcery is dangerous."

Elurora nods to you.

Agalea says, "Just like any form of magic."

Gridaksma says, "Magic in general is dangerous."

You say, "Fire is dangerous."

You shrug.

Agalea nods at Gridaksma, obviously agreeing with his views.

Kethrai says, "But sorcery is uniquely dangerous moreso than the typical spells cast in the typical way."

Tylanni says, "Anything can be dangerous in the hands of someone wanting to use it in such a way."

Agalea asks Anuril, "What are your goals in life?"

You nod to Tylanni.

Kethrai says, "Backlash can be very violent."

Elurora nods to Tylanni.

Navesi says, "My view is that people pursue power to achieve certain ends. Not everyone pursues power purely and insatiably. A scribe pursues the power to read and write in order to continue her trade, but she may refuse the incredible powers of magic because it doesn't serve her ends."

Kethrai says, "Usually only to the caster, of course."

You say to Tylanni, "A good point."

Gridaksma says, "The Elementalists seek to open up planes and contact beings from beyond, that seems rather foolish and dangerous."

Anuril says to Agalea, "To defend, largely, society."

Agalea asks Anuril, "A very noble goal. How will you defend society?"

Tylanni nods to Navesi.

Anuril says, "Through martial and magical prowess."

Saragos says, "Let me speak, then, as a Warrior Mage. The spiritual ancestors of my guild have multiple massive disasters that are on their hands due to the use of Sorcery. Blackfire had the potential to end everything. The Voidspell, used to combat it, ultimately created the leakage of the Planar Void that allowed Maelshyve to gain entrance."

Agalea says to Anuril, "So you seek two of the three that I mentioned."

Agalea praises Anuril.

Anuril smiles.

Anuril gives a slight nod.

Saragos says, "The annihilation of S'Kra Wind Clan was also likely Sorcerous, as the Heralds warned against it."

You say to Saragos, "Funny you should mention that...I intend that to be one of the case studies."

You smirk.

Saragos nods to you.

Miskton says, "Sorcery, as an entire category, is certainly dangerous, but not necessarily more so than other types of magic. Well, aside from the dangers to the user. But specific types of sorcery can have much more wide-ranging effects."

Agalea says to Anuril, "So you do seek power. I hope that you find it."

Anuril gives a slight nod.

Agalea carefully cleans her ring with a bit of cloth, burnishing the vengeance ruby held within until it gleams beautifully.

Agalea grins, revealing her dimples.

Gridaksma says, "The heralds were tampering with mortal affairs and allowed the Dragon Priests to ravage the lands. Don't use them as a moral compass."

Xelten matter-of-factly says, "The heralds of which Gridaksma speaks only intervened because the prior two had done so, without an understanding of why."

Miskton takes a sip of his brandy.

Saragos says to you, "To my mind, the Voidspell is the ultimate example of why you cannot trust your perceptions about Sorcery being safe. The true nature of the disaster did not become apparent until somewhere around 3500 years later, and ultimately resulted in the creation of the Zaulfung Stones."

Saragos says, "3500 or more years, where everything seemed fine."

Kethrai gives Saragos a slight nod.

Saragos exclaims, "So I'm, shall we say, very skeptical of any claims that, "I did X Sorcery and it was fine, see!"

You say to Saragos, "But those were isolated events, no? a 3500 year span is barely comprehensible to my mind in terms of time."

Saragos says, "Because enormously dangerous things have resulted in the past, and everyone involved was long dead before there was even a clue."

Zorthuric asks, "Here is a question, if someone could give you hard evidence today that the use of your guild's confound damaged Elanthia with every use in a verifiable fashion, would you continue to use your confound?"

Agalea asks, "Which confound?"

Saragos says to you, "They were only isolated events because the knowledge has been wiped out and hunted down by the Grovekeepers. If I knew the Voidspell I could do it all over again. Right now."

Zorthuric says, "Any."

You ask Zorthuric, "Is that a general question to everyone...?"

Zorthuric says, "The question was directed at Saragos though."

You say to Saragos, "But I imagine, even if you could, you wouldnt."

Gridaksma says to Saragos, "That is what they would like you to believe."

Saragos asks Zorthuric, "That's a complicated question, will you give me a bit of space to answer it?"

Zorthuric nods to Saragos.

Agalea says to Zorthuric, "The reason that I ask is because I have studied the use of two."

Agalea shrugs.

Kethrai says, "If I learned it about my own guild's abilities, and depending on the level of future damage we're talking, then I would stop, yes. I'd redouble my study of herbs. Not as effective, but..."

Miskton says to Zorthuric, "A particularly tricky question, in that in many cases to abstain from doing so would essentially require suicide."

Kethrai says, "I can't trade reducing hurt today in exchange for vastly increasing hurt in the future."

Constantia leans against a low beechwood cart.

Kethrai says, "It might be a challenge, though, if I saw no other empaths choosing to stop."

Zorthuric says to Miskton, ""I agree, in that I do not believe there is an easy answer."

You ask Zorthuric, "I think that is the issue at stake here...we know that these tools are dangerous. We just try to do the best we can, while minimizing what we perceive to be damage, yes?"

Saragos says, "So, if there were unequivocal evidence that the mere usage of Elemental Magic would wipe out life on Elanthia - absolutely. However, things are more complex than that. First off, repairing the damage that's already been done in the past is likely going to be a lot more complicated than breaking things in the first place was, so even if it was the cause of a problem, it might still be needed as a solution. You can break a building by hitting it with a wooden board, but still need wood to repair it."

Zorthuric ponders.

Elurora cocks her head.

Saragos says, "Second, if the merest use of elemental magic itself was that dangerous, likely all magic is. And at that point, we've all got a lot of thinking to do."

Miskton says to you, "Or not minimizing, in some cases. The Children of Kalestraum are quite fond of Teleologic Sorcery, and even attempt to weaponize the damage it does."

Anuril says to you, "It does ultimately come down to our assesment of risk vs reward, and I think that many of us here rate those risks very differently."

Saragos says, "But I'm not afraid of that line of inquiry."

Agalea peers quizzically at Elurora.

Mazrian says, "Things are considerably more complex, for all of us. The Plane is resiliant and tends to return to a stable state."

Saragos nods to Mazrian.

Agalea says to Elurora, "You look like you have something to say."

Mazrian says, "Nothing we do as individuals, with the tools we presently have, is going to change anything very much."

Agalea traces an outline around an enticing wasp-waisted corset fashioned from shadesatin and night diamonds.

Constantia nods to Mazrian.

You say to Saragos, "Or similarly, we know chopping down a tree is harmful to the environment. But in small doses, perhapos not as much. And if the reason has merit, perhaps it is an acceptable loss."

Saragos says to Mazrian, "That is true as well. Just because beheading is lethal for a person does not mean a scratch is."

Elurora says to Agalea, "Well, if we're going with the building thingy, it seems a little silly to beat the building in the first place if you know you're going to have to fix it later."

Mazrian says, "The question that matters is where we are trying to go."

You say to Anuril, "Most asuredly, because not everyone has the same situation."

Mazrian says, "And not all of those *ends* are equally neutral or healthy."

Agalea asks Gridaksma, "She is brillant. You know that right?"

Elurora blinks at Agalea.

Elurora blushes, the tips of her ears turning a delicate scarlet hue.

You ask Mazrian, "And who gets to decide that, as well, I presume?"

Gridaksma nods to Agalea.

Agalea says, "In all of our shouting and whatnot, we talked over Elurora."

Mazrian dryly says to you, "The Plane will ultimately let us know, I imagine, by imploding. Or some other such thing."

Saragos says to you, "I will actually concede that point. The frank reality is that Sorcery has been going on for a long time, and we're obviously still standing here. The real problems I have are, first, that the cumulative total might get us before we even realize it, and second, that some types of Sorcery are just catastrophic. Like the Voidspell."

Elurora glances at Agalea.

Agalea asks Elurora, "Not to put you on the spot, but would you please say that again?"

Elurora quietly says to Agalea, "I'm mostly just listening, but if you like."

Elurora says to Agalea, "Well, if we're going with the building thingy, it seems a little silly to beat the building in the first place if you know you're going to have to fix it later."

Saragos says, "And if you allow Sorcerous research to flourish in the open, someone will discover the Voidspell again. Or something like it. If it could be done 5000 years ago, it could happen now. And if that reaches wide circulation, we're all done for."

Xelten smiles slightly.

You say to Elurora, "A valid point. But tools are what they are, yes? I'd assume that everything you hit with your sword could, *theoretically* be reasoned with somehow."

Anuril nods to Saragos.

Xelten says, "The foundation of magic has changed, more than once, since the Voidspell. It may well NOT be possible now."

Saragos says, "So my position is that not every type of Sorcery is, objectively, equally risky. I grant that. But I would also note that we're horribly, horribly bad at telling the difference."

Kethrai says, "The other thing we know for sure is that, the more different kinds of mana are combined in a spell pattern, the more unpredictable and dangerous it becomes. Feral magic is the most explosive of all. It reminds me of... Well, something like a dose response."

Saragos nods to Kethrai.

Mazrian nods to Kethrai.

Kethrai says, "We can prove that something is poisonous if we can prove that the more of it someone receives, the sicker they become."

Elurora says to you, "In theory. But a building didn't try and set me on fire or eat my face."

Elurora grins at you.

Agalea brushes a hand along her vine cloak. The tendrils sweep away from her body and wave lazily in the air for a moment before settling back into place.

Tylanni studies the faces around him.

Anuril takes a sip of his wine.

Kethrai studies the faces around him.

You say, "Mostly, it seems like everyone is against, in theory, the use of sorcery."

Saragos says to Xelten, "That's true, the Voidspell might not be possible. But none of us can say with certainty that something equally destructive couldn't be discovered. If Feral Magic can allow us to travel inside of Maelshyve, then it can do... a lot."

Agalea says, "So it would seem."

Xelten smiles.

Tylanni leans against a low beechwood cart.

Agalea hums to herself.

Gridaksma asks, "The biggest threats to our plane of existance have been Clerics, Warrior Mages, and Moon Mages, perhaps we should cut the plant out at the root then?"

You say to Elurora, "While his analogy for a building was specific. Not everything is a building."

Anuril snorts, loudly.

You chuckle at Gridaksma.

Elurora grins at you.

Constantia frowns.

Tylanni smirks.

Kethrai says, "I'm not sure I'd even say I am categorically against sorcery. Even though I avoid using it myself."

Agalea says, "There have been Clerics who are very skilled at Sorcery."

Kethrai asks, "But the question was about... Is sorcery uniquely dangerous? Why is it still considered forbidden?"

Agalea shrugs.

Nsar says, "Sorcery, in all its combinations, is a means to an end. Its a sword and a plowshare all at the same time, wholly dependant on the will of its executor to give shape and meaning to. Cowering in fear because of something that might happen is as useful as shoving your head into the sand during a rainstorm in the hopes that it might not get wet."

You nod to Kethrai.

Nsar shakes his head.

Elurora says to you, "I guess I'm using the building idea in place of the innocent people we often end up harming. Which could extend to the animals, and plants that are mostly innocent. Not the ones that try and eat you so much...but the rest."

Gridaksma says, "The leader of the Ilithi Guard is known to use sorcery, he's still rather respected."

Agalea says to Nsar, "You are very correct."

You smile at Nsar.

Saragos says to Gridaksma, "That's not a complete list of risks, but they are risks. But if your house gets broken down by hammers, you can't repair it if you throw away your tools because tools caused it. There has to be a look at the costs and the benefits."

Xelten says to Gridaksma, "You mean the Captain of the Sentinels of Shard, presumably."

Agalea traces an outline around a twilight-hued wildlace garter decorated with piquant bloodlace fringe.

Gridaksma nods to Xelten.

Miskton says, "A sword that cleaves through armor but might explode in your hand and take off your arm is one thing. A sword that randomly kills 15 other people beyond the one you stabbed is another. And sorcery could be like either of those, which makes it a little tricky to make a general statement on."

Anuril nods to Miskton.

Gridaksma says to Saragos, "They should not be training more powerful beings to potentially rediscover these terrible spells you are so afraid of."

Navesi says to Kethrai, "There are different types of sorcery. I personally argue that even the most common of sorceries, cross-casting, is dangerous. It has the potential to backlash severely of course, but more subtly, it puts the user into a dangerous frame of mind. It requires dark, powerful emotion, and that wears on the mind and soul over time. It changes a person. We like to think we're unchangeable, but we're not."

You ask Miskton, "There are laws about public endangerment. Does that not already cover it?"

Saragos says to Nsar, "You're making a leap in logic. It's a means to an end, sure. But not all ends are desirable. If your end is to kill my children, lop off my head, burn my corpse, spit on my grave, I'm not a closed-minded fool just because I don't want to let you try it and see if it might be ok."

Anuril nods to Navesi.

Kethrai gives Navesi a slight nod.

Miskton says to you, "In many cases."

Navesi says, "I wish I could stay and debate further, but I am regrettably called away to family duties."

Kethrai bows to Navesi.

Constantia nods to Navesi.

Navesi says, "Hopefully Saragos will provide suitable entertainment and an interesting argument."

Anuril smirks.

Anuril nods to Navesi.

Navesi nods politely.

Newswoman Navesi goes south.

Miskton says, "I'm not sure laws against public endangerment will help much if the Timekeepers manage to do something really catastrophic, though, as an example."

Saragos says to Gridaksma, "We could debate about whether magic use, at all, is ethical, but I feel as though that's a different subject than what we're debating tonight."

You nod to Saragos.

You say to Saragos, "And probably a useless debate on the whole."

Saragos nods to you.

Kethrai says, "There's also the question of whether it's good to have a chilling effect on the practice even if we can't prevent it."

Anuril nods to Kethrai.

Saragos says, "Attunement does happen spontaneously, even without the Guilds. It would be very difficult to stop."

Kethrai says, "Putting extra hurdles in place, extra penalties, maybe it means fewer people practice sorcery, or practice it less."

Saragos nods to Kethrai.

You say, "Or, alternatively...teach responsible use."

Agalea taps out a rhythmic beat on the vengeance ruby held in her ring.

Kethrai says, "And maybe the cumulative effect of that is a positive."

Miskton says, "Even some animals are capable of casting spells, which certainly has issues with an attempt at applying an ethical framework there."

Nsar asks Saragos, "If sorcery were the only way to stop me from doing all those things, would you use it?"

Anuril gazes thoughtfully at you.

Nsar observes Saragos with fascination.

Gridaksma says, "And yet my point stands, there are three pillars creating the biggest issues with sorcery."

Miskton says, "For regular spellcasting, that is. I'm not sure if any animals have managed to do something sorcerous."

Miskton ponders.

Gridaksma asks, "When was the last time we had a world ending threat started by Rangers?"

Elurora says to Miskton, "Don't give them any ideas."

Elurora looks at Miskton, obviously trying not to grin.

Xelten says, "I am working on it."

You chuckle at Gridaksma.

Gridaksma grins at Xelten.

Saragos says to you, "But that gets back to my original point. The Four thought the Voidspell was being used responsibly. They were lauded for it. It's even in the official Warrior Mage history books. But the consequences were dire."

Gridaksma says, "Political wars don't generally have the same consequences."

Anuril dryly says, "I don't buy into this three pillars thing.."

Mazrian flashes a quick grin at Anuril.

Elurora chews on her lip, looking deep in concentration.

Gridaksma says, "Of course you wouldn't, you have too much riding on me being wrong."

Nsar dryly says, "History books are never wrong, of course."

Kethrai says, "Just because rangers haven't started a world-ending threat YET..."

Gridaksma says to Nsar, "Especially the ones I've written."

Saragos asks Gridaksma, "I'm sorry, are you talking to me?"

Elurora quietly asks Gridaksma, "Has the Paladin guild ever done anything maybe world endangering?"

Gridaksma says to Saragos, "Not any longer, I prefer to have intelligent conversations."

Kethrai says, "Just wait till we have a swarm of angry life dragons coming down on us because they offended the Kather."

Anuril quietly says to Saragos, "I think it was me."

Gridaksma says to Elurora, "Not at this point."

Constantia sighs.

Elurora gives Gridaksma a slight nod.

You say, "I think answers to whether the rangers or paladins have is difficult to answer. Much of their history seems lost or obfuscated."

Tylanni asks, "How did we go from sorcery to which guild has caused a world ending event?"

Kethrai gives you a slight nod.

Anuril grins at Tylanni.

Kethrai says, "True of all guilds, as far as I can tell."

You ask, "Arent there current quests to try and figure out such information?"

Anuril nods to you.

Elurora says to you, "We've been unable to find any leads to Sir Beren, but yes."

Miskton says, "People are certainly trying to dig into the past of the Paladins guild."

Miskton nods to Elurora.

Agalea pats a plush meshor fox tail of ivory fur displaying a tuft of scarlet at the tip.

Tylanni says, "If you look hard enough you'll find dirt on anything, just have to look."

Kethrai says, "I think there's also a difference though, when we're looking at guilds that nearly caused a world-ending event, then THEMSELVES fixed it, and also suppressed the ability for it to happen again in their guild."

Kethrai says, "Versus those for whom a world-ending event is, arguably, an end in itself."

Gridaksma says, "Those who study the purest forms of magic are the ones creating the most dangerous sorcery."

Elurora quietly says to Tylanni, "My question wasn't really a part of the debate, the debate just made me wonder because of a comment earlier about the guilds who'd been the most dangerous."

Anuril nods to Kethrai.

Gridaksma says to Kethrai, "Please tell me how they've solved this themselves, in any case."

Tylanni nods to Elurora.

Tylanni smirks.

Agalea says to you, "Even the Clerics are dangerous when it comes to things. The Sorcery that is possible by the Priests and Priestess's is very dangerous, if used incorrectly."

Elurora glances at Tylanni.

Elurora grins at Tylanni.

Kethrai says, "Well, if we're talking about warrior mages... They used the Voidspell to end the Blackfire Cabal, and suppressed knowledge of blackfire after that. Of course the Voidspell had its own problems, as we've said. There's also Stormwill Tower, which a warrior mage caused..."

Kethrai says, "But another warrior mage slew him, and warrior mages keep it in check, and are researching how to fix it permanently."

Gridaksma says, "That doesn't seem like they have fixed their problems then, now does it."

Tylanni grins at Elurora.

Zorthuric says, "All spell research is dangerous."

Miskton takes a sip of his brandy.

Anuril says, "He literally just said how the blackfire problem was solved."

You say to Agalea, "I think that is the point. Like it has been said, any tool can be used to hurt or destroy. But I would say that responsible use is a more important facet to be taught rather than being forbidden."

Gridaksma says, "Also Blackfire not even fully surpressed in our livetimes."

Anuril glances at Gridaksma.

Gridaksma says, "Lifetimes even."

Kethrai observes Gridaksma with fascination.

Saragos says, "There are risks of powerful influences from Paladins and Rangers as well. We know little about what the Bulwark means, and Rangers have received spells from Dragons, whose motivations are largely unknown. I think the competition of, "Who's worst, hint hint, it's not me," is unproductive."

Tylanni nods to you.

Agalea asks you, "So, everyone is okay with Clerics being able to create their own divine being?"

Kethrai asks, "Where has blackfire been used in our lifetimes?"

Constantia nods to Saragos.

Saragos says, "Especially in a discussion about Sorcery."

Kethrai asks, "Are we talking Morganae's?"

Mazrian says, "The Guilds by and large act to stabilize the practice of magic and direct it away from the most dangerous potential avenues."

Mazrian shakes his head.

Xelten glances at Kethrai.

Saragos says to Agalea, "Not particularly, no."

Kethrai nods at Mazrian, obviously agreeing with his views.

Agalea traces an outline around an enticing wasp-waisted corset fashioned from shadesatin and night diamonds.

Mazrian says, "The whole system is created, in part, to regulate that behavior."

Anuril nods to Saragos.

Zorthuric says, "The moon mage guild does not."

Mazrian says, "And it works. You know, more or less."

Saragos nods to Mazrian.

Gridaksma says to Kethrai, "I would be careful making accusations about Her Majesty here."

Constantia says, "I suspect that there would be certain...consequences, should anyone go confess to Gauthus that they practice hylomorphic sorcery."

Mazrian nods at Constantia, obviously agreeing with her views.

You ponder.

Anuril says, "He was asking about her lifetime, not her potential use of blackfire. I think."

Xelten says, "I believe he merely forgot how to address the Queen. Regardless, I have witnessed countless uses of Blackfire in my lifetime."

Kethrai points at Anuril.

Anuril nods to Kethrai.

Anuril nods to Gridaksma.

You ask Constantia, "Did oyu happen to witness anyone using it against Asketi's minions?"

Agalea says to Saragos, "You would be amazed by the amount of Young Clerics who still seek me out in how to do that."

Gridaksma nods to Xelten.

Agalea dimples at Saragos.

Kethrai says, "'In our lifetimes' is maybe a very large sliding scale."

Elurora grins at Kethrai.

Constantia says to you, "Hylomorphic sorcery? No, I did not."

Gridaksma says, "I meant some of us here, have seen it quite live and well."

Mazrian says, "There have been some examples in the re sent past, when I was younger."

Mazrian gazes thoughtfully at Anuril.

Mazrian says, "It didn't work out well for any of those Mages, as I recall."

Mazrian says, "And I knew some of them."

Saragos says to Agalea, "Oh, I'm not surprised. Especially with the young. They often have a faulty sense of risk that often results in self-destruction."

Zorthuric takes a sip of his wine.

Anuril says, "Well as far as us kids know, no one can use blackfire any more."

Anuril casually observes the area.

Mazrian says to Anuril, "But apart from the inherent dangers, the Lord of the Void has been known to make examples of Mages who aspire to power like that."

Anuril nods.

Saragos nods to Mazrian.

Agalea hugs Agalea's vine cloak to herself. The tendrils slither around her body, clenching and unclenching to return the hug.

Xelten says, "Yes, the nuances in spellwork required to manifest Blackfire may well have been rendered impossible by the catastrophic events of recent history."

Mazrian nods to Xelten.

Mazrian dryly says, " 'Which isn't to say something worse might not now be possible. For every silver lining there is a cloud."

Xelten says, "Greyfire, perhaps."

Kethrai says, "Catastrophic events caused by the death of Maelshyve... Who entered this plane because of the Voidspell... QED."

Mazrian asks, "Pucefire?"

Kethrai giggles.

Anuril says, "Chartreuse."

You chuckle at Kethrai.

You say to Kethrai, "Thats is something worth discussing, but perhaps another time."

Saragos says, "Fundamentally, when considering legalizing Sorcerous research, I would say that we currently exist in an environment where that knowledge has been suppressed. Civilization has been remarkably successful in avoiding the near-misses that might have destroyed everything that we see in the history books. I think we should not discount that."

Anuril pats Tylanni on the back.

Mazrian says, "But the ethics of pursuit of magics like that are necessarily different in kind from the ethics of casting Clear Vision with a Life user's attunemtn."

You say to Saragos, "Perhaps because of that same ingenuity."

Agalea rubs some blighted gold earrings caging triple-tined claws of Dalaeji black sapphire.

Agalea sighs.

You say, "The problem and the solution at the same time."

Anuril whispers something to Tylanni.

You ask Mazrian, "Do you not feel the same level of emotional response from "casting clear vision from life mana"?"

Kethrai says to Mazrian, "In perhaps the same way that a hunter killing a single deer has basically no effect, while a hundred hunters slaughtering every deer in the forest would."

You ask, "As other sorcewries?"

Agalea traces an outline around a twilight-hued wildlace garter decorated with piquant bloodlace fringe.

You clear your throat.

You say, "Sorceries."

Kethrai says, "It's a difference in degree rather than kind, but it's an important difference in degree."

Mazrian nods to Kethrai.

Saragos says to you, "But to make that point you'd have to show cases where ingenuity has kept Sorcery from causing problems. The only possible good example I can think of there is Osven's device and the killing of Maelshyve. But I suspect that's not your favorite topic of conversation."

You chuckle at Saragos.

Mazrian says to you, "Emotional response is an individual consequence."

Mazrian shrugs.

Saragos says, "What the unintended consequences of that one might be does keep me up at night."

Mazrian says, "It may not be a great IDEA to do that a lot, but neither is indulging in any number of vices."

You say, "I applaud Osven for his work. In fact, I distinctly remember attempting to memorialize it, to my untimely, albeit shortlived demise."

Constantia frowns.

Saragos says to you, "You may recall that I didn't participate in that fighting, but instead stayed on to pay my respects."

You say, "Well, I think we are still at an impasse here. While the use of sorcery, with its effects on the Plane seem to be something we agree might be bad, I dont think anyone has really been for giving it up."

You nod to Saragos.

Nsar says, "A sorcerous device was the catalyst that attempted to eject Maelshyve from this plane, created by a known sorceror, and powered by the collective magics of all known spellcasters.. That doesnt seem to make a great case to support limiting the use of Sorcery."

Miskton says to Saragos, "I think at a certain point, while unintended consequences might be unfortunate, people continuing to exist long enough to run into them are worth the risk. The stakes are usually not quite that high when people are engaging in sorcery, though."

Agalea runs her finger lightly along the edge of her ring, smiling slightly at the vengeance ruby placed within.

Anuril ponders.

Anuril takes a sip of his wine.

Saragos says to Miskton, "Right. I agree that not every single use of Sorcery is a potential world-ending event. But that also doesn't mean we should make it legal and court those disasters further."

Agalea says to Nsar, "For once we agree on something."

Elurora chews on her lip, looking deep in concentration.

Agalea says, "It was not the Temple, nor was it Mages in a tower. It was a Sorcery wielding Necromancer."

Agalea shrugs.

Mazrian asks Nsar, "Quite the contrary. For every Osven who masters the craft, how many disasters or near disasters are there?"

Saragos nods to Agalea.

Kethrai asks you, "It feels like the impasse is you making it a yes-or-no question. Sorcery: is it harmless and should be practiced freely? Or should all practice of it be banned, as it is according to the letter of the law of our provinces?"

Gridaksma says, "Sorcerors were behind the death of Lyras as well."

Kethrai says, "And it feels like most of us are falling somewhere in the middle of those extremes."

Anuril gives Kethrai a slight nod.

You say to Kethrai, "Not so much as a yes or no, but more a consensus of academically minded folks."

Xelten says to Gridaksma, "Though in that case, a problem caused by the same, to an extent."

Mazrian says to Gridaksma, "The Empath who accomplished the deed is always erased, in these discussions."

Gridaksma says to Xelten, "She was a warrior mage when she left the east."

Saragos asks, "Right. And Osven pulled it off, as far as we know now. But if, for example, Osven's techniques were taught to everyone, how long would it be before some idiot got their hands on those techniques, did it very wrong, and made the Plane of Abiding obey the laws of the Planar Void?"

Xelten smiles.

Elurora shakes her head at Mazrian.

Gridaksma says to Mazrian, "I'm quite aware of what Asrea did as I was standing next to her."

Mazrian says, "I'm sure you were."

Agalea asks Saragos, "Maybe we could kill an Immortal with the knot?"

Gridaksma says to Mazrian, "I was granted a Court Position for my role in that."

Mazrian says, "Bully for you."

Agalea adjusts her meshor fox tail.

Mazrian smiles at Gridaksma.

Anuril coughs.

Gridaksma asks Mazrian, "Do you want me to spill your little secret here too since you seem to want to pick a fight?"

Saragos says to Agalea, "Indeed."

You ask, "Before we devolve into blows, perhaps we should end it here?"

Saragos says, "Something that most of us would consider catastrophic."

You take a moment to look for everybody in the area and see Zfora, Philomath Miskton, Logarithmancer Zorthuric, Tylanni, Heart Tender Kethrai, Storm Maiden Constantia, Veteran Apprentice Anuril, Mazrian, Xelten, Arcane Malcontent Nsar who is sitting, Lady Knight Elurora, Heretic Agalea, Tempest Knight Saragos who has a stony visage and Lord of Elamiri Gridaksma.

You clear your throat.

Kethrai whispers something to Anuril.

Elurora nods at you, obviously agreeing with your views.

Agalea says, "No. Fighting. Please."

Anuril shakes his head at Kethrai.

Mazrian says to Gridaksma, "I doubt you know anything worth speaking of."

Mazrian smiles at Gridaksma.

Anuril rummages about his person, looking for something.

Miskton gazes up at the sky.

Gridaksma says, "Laertas."

Agalea says to Mazrian, "He does. I manage to pry that secret from him."

Zorthuric nods at Agalea, obviously agreeing with her views.

Agalea hums to herself.

Xelten chuckles to himself.

Mazrian says to Gridaksma, "You should keep my son's name out of your mouth."

Constantia frowns.

Gridaksma asks, "Oh you mean your son who was brought back to life by necromancy?"

Agalea glares.

Anuril raises an eyebrow.

Mazrian says, "I am going to say it just once more."

Nsar hums to himself.

Gridaksma says, "The truth is out."

(Xelten casually strolls out of the line between Mazrian and Gridaksma.)

Agalea says, "Well."

Agalea says, "To be fair, he didn't say his name."

Elurora says, "It was request that we not start fighting. By our host."

Elurora points at you.

Elurora glances at Mazrian.

Elurora glances at Gridaksma.

You chuckle.

Elurora says, "You two can growl at each other later if you must."

Mazrian says, "Then we can step outside."

You say, "At least let me conclude...then you can do whatever you wish."

Mazrian smiles.

Saragos says to Gridaksma, "You're just fabulously bad at following instructions, aren't you? First you take it off topic, then you take it to blows. If Agalea and I can behave ourselves here and not be at each other's throats, you should be able to as well."

You smirk.

Anuril casually observes the area.

Gridaksma says to Mazrian, "You aren't my type."

Mazrian gestures.

Mazrian looks steadier.

You say, "Well then, I appreciate everyone coming and the discussion. The next session will be on the Immortals. Veneration and Appeasement. I hope to gather some clerics to speak on their opinions on the matter."

Mazrian gestures.

A faint breeze surrounds him.

Saragos says to you, "It was a good debate, and I'm glad that I came."

Mazrian gestures.

A network of thin lines form around him, then quickly fade away.

Elurora says to you, "Thank you for hosting this."

You nod to Saragos.

Zorthuric whispers something to Constantia.

Miskton says, "I'm sure that will be a lively discussion as well."

Saragos says to you, "Oh boy. That one should get... heated."

Miskton takes a sip of his brandy.

Constantia nods to Zorthuric.

Agalea says to Saragos, "It was fun to be in the same place and not be throwing things at each other."

Mazrian gestures.

Mazrian seems to move more easily.

Anuril gives you a slight nod.

Zorthuric takes a sip of his wine.

Agalea traces an outline around an enticing wasp-waisted corset fashioned from shadesatin and night diamonds.

Kethrai nods to Anuril.

Mazrian gestures.

Helixes and cross-patterns of brownish-white crystals grow rapidly across Mazrian.

You say to Saragos, "Probably should have done that one first, considering the Ride."

Saragos says to Agalea, "For once. I'm sure we'll get back to the murder soon enough."

Mazrian gestures.

The air around Mazrian shimmers with a blinding yellow luminescence. The scintillating light writhes and twists, abruptly coalescing into a translucent field before blinking out of sight.

Mazrian slings a slender matte-black staff traced with geometric runes engraved in Elven silver off from over his shoulder.

Mazrian sweeps his staff in front of him in quick, methodical swings.

Mazrian's staff steadily brightens, until it burns like a vivid and fiery torch!

Mazrian's staff fades over the course of a few seconds, returning to normal.

Gridaksma says to you, "It was a pleasure. I'm sure I'll see you again soon."

Anuril gives Tylanni a slight nod.

Gridaksma bows his head, acknowledging Agalea.

Mazrian gestures.

A crackling mantle of blazing orange-yellow flames surrounds Mazrian, sinking into and melding with his body.

Mazrian slings a slender matte-black staff traced with geometric runes engraved in Elven silver over his shoulder.

Gridaksma bows his head, acknowledging Elurora.

Tylanni nods to Kethrai.

Elurora gives Gridaksma a slight curtsy, barely more than a quick bob.

Mazrian gestures.

A halo of fire flickers into being and hovers around his neck and mouth briefly.

You say, "Farewell."

Gridaksma says, "I have some more sorcery to play with."

Anuril glances at Constantia.

Mazrian gets an indurium phoenix with eyes of canary diamond from inside his black backpack.

Saragos raises two fingers to his brow in a quick hand salute.

Mazrian holds an indurium phoenix with eyes of canary diamond in his hand and closes his eyes in concentration.

A wild fervor flashes in Mazrian's eyes.

Elurora curtsies.

Mazrian puts his phoenix in his black backpack.

Mazrian gestures.

A muted roar begins to emanate from Mazrian's arms.

Gridaksma raises an eyebrow.

Anuril nods at Constantia, obviously agreeing with her views.

Tylanni nods to Constantia.

Mazrian says to Gridaksma, "Before that, we have business."

Mazrian gets a sturdy ironwood wand wrapped in braided lengths of sinew from inside his black backpack.

Agalea says, "No voilence as a result please."

Nsar stands up.

Mazrian holds a sturdy ironwood wand wrapped in braided lengths of sinew in his hand and closes his eyes in concentration.

Mazrian puts his wand in his black backpack.

Nsar carefully gathers up the delicate folds of an ichor drenched prayer tapestry embroidered with the image of a slender woman.

Nsar puts his tapestry in his multi-strapped carryall.

Gridaksma says to Mazrian, "No, we don't."

Nsar slides the sleeves of his kimono over his hands with a small graceful movement before crossing his arms before him, hands tucked in opposite sleeves.

Agalea says, "I am trying to ask in a polite manner."

Kethrai casually observes the area.

Lord of Elamiri Gridaksma's group went through a wooden gate.

Agalea touches the tattoo on her left hip and closes her eyes in concentration.

Anuril lightly says, "Well then, see you all later."

Mazrian went through a wooden gate.

Constantia sighs.

Anuril raises two fingers to his brow in a quick hand salute.

Zorthuric waves to Anuril.

Xelten hums to himself.

Saragos shrugs.

Zorthuric says, "Safe Journeys."

Constantia nods.

Kethrai nods.

Saragos says, "I'll be off as well. Take care."

Veteran Apprentice Anuril's group went through a wooden gate.

Saragos gives a courteous nod and tips his hat politely.

Tempest Knight Saragos went through a wooden gate.

Zorthuric nods.

Agalea grins, revealing her dimples.

Nsar asks, "So the great Necromancer hunter hides progeny that's not much more than a Risen, eh?"

Nsar hums to himself.

Nsar says, "The things we learn in polite company."

Agalea fiddles with one of the idle lush emerald green tendrils of her vine cloak, twirling it around a finger.

Nsar shrugs.

Agalea says to Nsar, "Our disagreement seems pale in comparison doesn't it."

Agalea grins, revealing her dimples.

(Miskton closes his eyes and rubs the bridge of his nose for a few moments.)

Zorthuric glances at Miskton.

Philomath Miskton went through a wooden gate.