Talk:Policy:Scripting policy - Revision history

DAKRE: /* The incentives to script are too big */

2017-11-22T04:10:22Z

The incentives to script are too big

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:10, 21 November 2017
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	:Being rewarded for "immersing yourself" is a nice thought. It's also completely unrealistic. There will never be enough GMs to babysit every character in the game to enable roleplaying-based advancement. Short of that, there is no possible advancement system that wouldn't incentivize AFK scripting.--[[User:MRTSCR\|MRTSCR]] ([[User talk:MRTSCR\|talk]]) 20:26, 23 October 2016 (CDT)		:Being rewarded for "immersing yourself" is a nice thought. It's also completely unrealistic. There will never be enough GMs to babysit every character in the game to enable roleplaying-based advancement. Short of that, there is no possible advancement system that wouldn't incentivize AFK scripting.--[[User:MRTSCR\|MRTSCR]] ([[User talk:MRTSCR\|talk]]) 20:26, 23 October 2016 (CDT)

			As a returning player (last played in MSN Zone), I have been playing for roughly 4-5 months now, and here is my thoughts on scripting. As much as I enjoy the game, and love the improvements, it still feels like a huge time commitment to improve ranks. I have enough going on, that I would end up getting bored before getting into any meaningful content. Killing creatures for days to weeks to improve is boring. So instead, I spent most of my scripting while talking with people. I will occasionally craft, but i would say more than 90% of the game i'm probably relying on scripts. The issue I see, is for such an old game, veterans may enjoy the achievement of how long it took, and where they are at currently. However, for new and returning players, we cannot dedicate years just to reach a decent rank. Things have changed, but it feels similar to the old game. It takes forever to rank up, and it's only faster if you have a paid account. So when you have kids, responsibilities, a job, etc. It's tough to get anywhere, especially if you get bored before you do, or another player turns you off the game. It varies, but scripting is almost needed. It would be nice if things change, so it doesn't feel as necessary. However, not to the point of ruining other people's time commitment and achievements. Until things change, to allow younger characters to progress fast enough to catch up to a point (not max, but have decent skill), then I would suggest the policies should reflect today's game market. That may include being lighter to scripting, while still not allowing it to run amok. --[[User:DAKRE\|DAKRE]] ([[User talk:DAKRE\|talk]]) 10:16, 21 November 2017 (CST)

	=== AFK check methods ===		=== AFK check methods ===

PEANUTBRITTLE at 03:56, 11 January 2017

2017-01-11T03:56:05Z

PEANUTBRITTLE at 03:54, 11 January 2017

2017-01-11T03:54:05Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:54, 10 January 2017
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	2 and 3 shouldn't be possible. Reporting shouldn't ever be accessible as a weapon and certainly not when there is the possibility of permanent rank removal. And AFK checks clearly shouldn't be a surreptitious way to remove undesirable players. A no-GM solution to disruptive scripting would cleanly eliminate these two possibilities.--[[User:MRTSCR\|MRTSCR]] ([[User talk:MRTSCR\|talk]]) 23:34, 23 October 2016 (CDT)		2 and 3 shouldn't be possible. Reporting shouldn't ever be accessible as a weapon and certainly not when there is the possibility of permanent rank removal. And AFK checks clearly shouldn't be a surreptitious way to remove undesirable players. A no-GM solution to disruptive scripting would cleanly eliminate these two possibilities.--[[User:MRTSCR\|MRTSCR]] ([[User talk:MRTSCR\|talk]]) 23:34, 23 October 2016 (CDT)
	:It's also worth noting that, to my understanding, script checks aren't always blatant. GMs can observe someone and see they're not gaining exp AFK before doing a check to actively show they're paying attention. --[[User:TEVESHSZAT\|TEVESHSZAT]] ([[User talk:TEVESHSZAT\|talk]]) 00:05, 24 October 2016 (CDT)		:It's also worth noting that, to my understanding, script checks aren't always blatant. GMs can observe someone and see they're not gaining exp AFK before doing a check to actively show they're paying attention. --[[User:TEVESHSZAT\|TEVESHSZAT]] ([[User talk:TEVESHSZAT\|talk]]) 00:05, 24 October 2016 (CDT)

			===Implement diminishing returns===
			My proposed solution for updating the scripting policy is basically to disincentivize the kind of scripting that is game-unbalancing and disruptive to other players. I would not propose a change to overall scripting policy (except change to penalties which I'll address at the end), but it would allow better and more fair checks against scripters so that casual gamers would be less likely to have their immersion broken by disruptive script checks.

			My solution is to implement penalties that impact how productive heavy-scripting can be as well as reduce the rewards for being a heavy-scripter. Rather than the old method of experience slow-downs (as it is already a crawl with a F2P account), I would propose the following reductions as a starting out point, but this is certainly open to additional suggestions:
			1. Reduced creature spawn rate that affects your room only, not the ground in general
			2. Reduction of value of drops
			3. Reduction of payouts for contract trading
			4. Reduction of payouts for completed work orders
			5. Reduction in experience gains from listening to classes
			6. Luck penalties if appropriate to whatever the Luck system becomes

			These penalties would be on a sliding, gradual scale. Let's say for simplicity's sake, we call this Shun, since that's basically what's going to happen to you. Basically you will be Shunned if you remain logged in constantly and training at all times beyond what a mortal IG and OOG could accomplish (think about it, 24 hours of hunting is literally 4 straight days in DR, and also 24 straight hours of a person hypothetically at the keyboard). You increase Shun for long duration spent logged in, but you shrug it off during times of non-training so that if you're the type to stay logged in to catch all the gweth chatter, you can do so freely. However, training also earns Shun which will then cause you to start outpacing how quickly you can shrug it off.

			As a very basic example, consider you earn 1% Shun for every skill you have in field experience over [2/34] every 5 minutes and 50% shun every 4 hours. You shrug off 1 full Shun "point" every hour if training, or 50% of your Shun every hour if NO training is occurring. If you are training 10 skills actively, constantly, you will earn .2 Shun every hour, plus .5 every 4 hours. After 16 straight hours, you would be at 7.2 points of this. If training 35 skills, you gain 3.2 every hour, plus the .5 every 4 hours, so after 16 hours you would be at 55.2.

			I would imagine 10 points would be a small, probably barely noticeable penalty and by the time you hit 40, it's getting pretty bad and at 80 you're barely getting any creatures and earning coppers on the silver of what you're used to. So 24 hours of really hard core training would pretty much necessitate a decently long break.

			Benefits:
			- It disincentives long-term heavy scripting by creating tangible penalties to monetary gains from people who non stop hunt or non stop craft AND it prevents people from circumventing it by merely swapping back and forth between the hunt and the craft hall.
			- To that point, the penalties are results-affecting instead of process-affecting so clever-er scripts like those that check for mind locks or full pouches won't help.
			- It makes it increasingly more difficult to make good returns on combat training in particular as spawn rate and the ability to keep combat skills locked will be reduced. This is the biggest source of salt when people say afk scripting disrupts game balance. You can't bully people with knitting needles.
			- It makes it easy to identify abusive scripters simply by auditing Shun levels. See a player with 60 Shun? Maybe give them a little nudge. Players who script but aren't super good at it can still get checked and may still rise to those kinds of high levels, but they won't necessarily be bright on the radar.
			- It leaves it still very possible for people to remain logged in at all times as long as they are still exhibiting some balance of training and not.
			- Depending on what Luck affects, it could provide an additional outlet for this attribute.

			As for the penalties for scripting, I do feel that skill and stat loss is too extreme even for repeat offenders, as properly executed, this system would significantly reduce one's ability to grind away for days or weeks on end and unbalance the game, so massively abusing afk scripting policy is sort of nonsensical anyway. I think penalties should begin with dumping a lot of Shun on a player, then penalizing their Luck, then giving stat and skill Debuffs of increasing durations and scope. Maybe first infraction is 100 Shun and some bad luck. Then maybe 200 Shun, bad luck, and -5% to all skills for 72 hours. Third time could be -10% to stats, -10% to skills for 10 days, etc.

			Bonus ideas: Empathic shock for high Shun? Would discourage healer bots. Increased favor costs for high Shun to discourage people just dumping exp into orbs when they start to get into the red zone.

ALLIZAR2012: /* Eliminate scripting policy when it isn't preventing others from enjoying the game, incentivize non-scripting tasks */

2017-01-10T00:52:03Z

Eliminate scripting policy when it isn't preventing others from enjoying the game, incentivize non-scripting tasks

@@ Line 63: / Line 63: @@
 --[[User:JHALIASCLERIC|JHALIASCLERIC]] ([[User talk:JHALIASCLERIC|talk]]) 13:25, 12 October 2016 (CDT)
 : +1 --[[User:POPWEASEL|Dartellum Waddle, WarMage]] ([[User talk:POPWEASEL|talk]]) 10:53, 13 October 2016 (CDT)
 ===The incentives to script are too big===

ALLIZAR2012: /* Thoughts on AFK scripting */

2017-01-08T06:43:58Z

Thoughts on AFK scripting

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:43, 8 January 2017
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	This is like the war on drugs that continues to destroy lives over minor infractions, but in a 20+ year old text based game. I get how obstructive a few lines of text can be to some, but isn't it about time to chill out? Most players I talk to in confidence will actually defend other players against the GM's at this point. Don't expect any reporting from me and you can warn me if you want over it.		This is like the war on drugs that continues to destroy lives over minor infractions, but in a 20+ year old text based game. I get how obstructive a few lines of text can be to some, but isn't it about time to chill out? Most players I talk to in confidence will actually defend other players against the GM's at this point. Don't expect any reporting from me and you can warn me if you want over it.

	Another slap in the face is that GM's use tactics that no player can replicate. I can't scroll up and look at/write down my skills list for more then 30 seconds without being stressed out and scrolling down to see if a GM is doing some random environmental check on me even if I would instantly notice any player related action such as whispers, tapping me, entering a room or just saying hi. So much effort went into bypassing normal game mechanics so GM's can catch a player that is not completely focused on the game that it's lost the point.		Another slap in the face is that GM's use tactics that no player can replicate. I can't scroll up and look at/write down my skills list for more then 30 seconds without being stressed out and scrolling down to see if a GM is doing some random environmental check on me even though I would instantly notice any player related action such as whispers, tapping me, entering a room or just saying hi. So much effort went into bypassing normal game mechanics so GM's can catch a player that is not completely focused on the game that it's lost the point.

	===Policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other===		===Policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other===

ALLIZAR2012: /* Thoughts on AFK scripting */

2017-01-08T06:42:17Z

Thoughts on AFK scripting

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:42, 8 January 2017
Line 39:		Line 39:
	This is like the war on drugs that continues to destroy lives over minor infractions, but in a 20+ year old text based game. I get how obstructive a few lines of text can be to some, but isn't it about time to chill out? Most players I talk to in confidence will actually defend other players against the GM's at this point. Don't expect any reporting from me and you can warn me if you want over it.		This is like the war on drugs that continues to destroy lives over minor infractions, but in a 20+ year old text based game. I get how obstructive a few lines of text can be to some, but isn't it about time to chill out? Most players I talk to in confidence will actually defend other players against the GM's at this point. Don't expect any reporting from me and you can warn me if you want over it.

	Another slap in the face is that GM's use tactics that no player can replicate. I can't scroll up and look at/write down my skills list for more then 30 seconds without being stressed out and scrolling down to see if a GM is doing some random environmental check on me even if I would instantly notice any player related action such as whispers, tapping me, entering a room or just saying hi.		Another slap in the face is that GM's use tactics that no player can replicate. I can't scroll up and look at/write down my skills list for more then 30 seconds without being stressed out and scrolling down to see if a GM is doing some random environmental check on me even if I would instantly notice any player related action such as whispers, tapping me, entering a room or just saying hi. So much effort went into bypassing normal game mechanics so GM's can catch a player that is not completely focused on the game that it's lost the point.

	===Policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other===		===Policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other===

ALLIZAR2012: /* Thoughts on AFK scripting */

2017-01-08T06:37:55Z

Thoughts on AFK scripting

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:37, 8 January 2017
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	:-Penalties are far too severe, if you think that's not the case look at how many have quit because of it. Especially once you get to the 1k+ rank range, losing 100 ranks at that level is subscription altering. And then you not only lose those ranks, which do NOT come fast at all, you lose stats as well? No wonder people quit over that stuff. I propose a learning reduction, something than can progress if you are a repeat offender, 10% less exp gain for first, then 20% for second offense, 30% etc, most of us that have played for a long time remember how brutal the game used to be in regards to learning, if you don't remember then roll up a F2P, it sucks! And maybe for 3rd+ offense, start using the increasing lockout (which used to be the punishment back in the day anyways), at 3rd offense maybe a 48 hour lockout (since it is the 3rd offense 2 days to start sounds fair). And for people to say "just go to the fallen", the utter lack of people sucks, some of us like to watch the numbers but also like to interact with others, not to mention the extra cost of the subscription on a sub that's already borderline too high compared to every other online game. --[[User:GORTUNG\|GORTUNG]] ([[User talk:GORTUNG\|talk]]) 23:51, 7 January 2017 (CST)		:-Penalties are far too severe, if you think that's not the case look at how many have quit because of it. Especially once you get to the 1k+ rank range, losing 100 ranks at that level is subscription altering. And then you not only lose those ranks, which do NOT come fast at all, you lose stats as well? No wonder people quit over that stuff. I propose a learning reduction, something than can progress if you are a repeat offender, 10% less exp gain for first, then 20% for second offense, 30% etc, most of us that have played for a long time remember how brutal the game used to be in regards to learning, if you don't remember then roll up a F2P, it sucks! And maybe for 3rd+ offense, start using the increasing lockout (which used to be the punishment back in the day anyways), at 3rd offense maybe a 48 hour lockout (since it is the 3rd offense 2 days to start sounds fair). And for people to say "just go to the fallen", the utter lack of people sucks, some of us like to watch the numbers but also like to interact with others, not to mention the extra cost of the subscription on a sub that's already borderline too high compared to every other online game. --[[User:GORTUNG\|GORTUNG]] ([[User talk:GORTUNG\|talk]]) 23:51, 7 January 2017 (CST)

			This is like the war on drugs that continues to destroy lives over minor infractions, but in a 20+ year old text based game. I get how obstructive a few lines of text can be to some, but isn't it about time to chill out? Most players I talk to in confidence will actually defend other players against the GM's at this point. Don't expect any reporting from me and you can warn me if you want over it.

			Another slap in the face is that GM's use tactics that no player can replicate. I can't scroll up and look at/write down my skills list for more then 30 seconds without being stressed out and scrolling down to see if a GM is doing some random environmental check on me even if I would instantly notice any player related action such as whispers, tapping me, entering a room or just saying hi.

	===Policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other===		===Policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other===

ALLIZAR2012: /* Do away with script checks, encourage self-policing */

2017-01-08T06:31:28Z

Do away with script checks, encourage self-policing

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:31, 8 January 2017
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	::As someone who just recieved an afk warning on Jan 6, there was no bright colored text UNTIL I had recieved the warning. Was I afk? Yes, it was 6am I had fallen asleep, my fault completely. Now, I play a necro, 99% of the time I need to stay away from populated areas, the hunting ground I was using is very remote for these purposes, combine those and you have a very lonely progression which gets very boring so you end up watching the numbers or being a pain in the ass to everyone in town constantly. Was my script disrupting anyone at all? No. Was there a lack of hunting rooms? Definitely not as there's not that many people out here. Typing "attack" 80 billion times is not exciting, I've played off and on since 2000 so the combat messaging has more or less lost its fun factor in all its goriness. I've actually only been back for about a week after taking a few months off and am now contemplating quitting for good because I'd rather just quit where I'm at than take an exp/stat hit because I fell asleep again, like so many others over the years. Self-policing would alleviate this, someone finds me afk, they poke and prod and I don't respond so they take some vigilante justice to my face, sweet, good deal, I might lose a weapon, maybe try a new hunting ground, and just like necros get their names highlighted so they never get forgotten so will people highlight the names of afk people and I guarantee they'll get checked on by the populace. --[[User:GORTUNG\|GORTUNG]] ([[User talk:GORTUNG\|talk]]) 23:39, 7 January 2017 (CST)		::As someone who just recieved an afk warning on Jan 6, there was no bright colored text UNTIL I had recieved the warning. Was I afk? Yes, it was 6am I had fallen asleep, my fault completely. Now, I play a necro, 99% of the time I need to stay away from populated areas, the hunting ground I was using is very remote for these purposes, combine those and you have a very lonely progression which gets very boring so you end up watching the numbers or being a pain in the ass to everyone in town constantly. Was my script disrupting anyone at all? No. Was there a lack of hunting rooms? Definitely not as there's not that many people out here. Typing "attack" 80 billion times is not exciting, I've played off and on since 2000 so the combat messaging has more or less lost its fun factor in all its goriness. I've actually only been back for about a week after taking a few months off and am now contemplating quitting for good because I'd rather just quit where I'm at than take an exp/stat hit because I fell asleep again, like so many others over the years. Self-policing would alleviate this, someone finds me afk, they poke and prod and I don't respond so they take some vigilante justice to my face, sweet, good deal, I might lose a weapon, maybe try a new hunting ground, and just like necros get their names highlighted so they never get forgotten so will people highlight the names of afk people and I guarantee they'll get checked on by the populace. --[[User:GORTUNG\|GORTUNG]] ([[User talk:GORTUNG\|talk]]) 23:39, 7 January 2017 (CST)

			::::I quit for 3 years because of a single first violation warning due to failing a script check. I came back, but if I ever get another one I would walk away from DR forever. I regularly let my hunt script run while I wash the dishes or watch netflix. I instantly see and react to any player interaction but would likely fail an environmental check because I don't watch that screen closely. Lynch me if you will, but I am the average player these days. --[[User:Allizar2012\|Allizar2012]]

	===Some characters receive more AFK checks than others===		===Some characters receive more AFK checks than others===

GORTUNG: /* Thoughts on AFK scripting */

2017-01-08T05:51:26Z

Thoughts on AFK scripting

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:51, 8 January 2017
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	: One of the GMs made a beautiful post on the official forums about how they did lots of AFK checks when they first started, but basically do none now. I think their post (http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/DragonRealms%20Policy%20Discussions/Scripting%20policy/view/1350 and find the post by DR-RAESH) ties into points 4, 5, and 6. Their point was basically A) AFK checks take a while to perform; B) even when they identify an AFKer, there is paperwork; C) there are better places to spend GM time; and D) the root cause is not AFKers, but that the game encourages AFK scripting so much. To point 8, I feel it would unduly impact F2P players. I keep some characters logged in for very long periods of time, but that's a necessity since I don't have offline drain. Build up field exp during the day, then let it drain overnight. [[User:SHELTIM\|SHELTIM]] ([[User talk:SHELTIM\|talk]]) 09:16, 12 October 2016 (CDT)		: One of the GMs made a beautiful post on the official forums about how they did lots of AFK checks when they first started, but basically do none now. I think their post (http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/DragonRealms%20Policy%20Discussions/Scripting%20policy/view/1350 and find the post by DR-RAESH) ties into points 4, 5, and 6. Their point was basically A) AFK checks take a while to perform; B) even when they identify an AFKer, there is paperwork; C) there are better places to spend GM time; and D) the root cause is not AFKers, but that the game encourages AFK scripting so much. To point 8, I feel it would unduly impact F2P players. I keep some characters logged in for very long periods of time, but that's a necessity since I don't have offline drain. Build up field exp during the day, then let it drain overnight. [[User:SHELTIM\|SHELTIM]] ([[User talk:SHELTIM\|talk]]) 09:16, 12 October 2016 (CDT)

			:-Penalties are far too severe, if you think that's not the case look at how many have quit because of it. Especially once you get to the 1k+ rank range, losing 100 ranks at that level is subscription altering. And then you not only lose those ranks, which do NOT come fast at all, you lose stats as well? No wonder people quit over that stuff. I propose a learning reduction, something than can progress if you are a repeat offender, 10% less exp gain for first, then 20% for second offense, 30% etc, most of us that have played for a long time remember how brutal the game used to be in regards to learning, if you don't remember then roll up a F2P, it sucks! And maybe for 3rd+ offense, start using the increasing lockout (which used to be the punishment back in the day anyways), at 3rd offense maybe a 48 hour lockout (since it is the 3rd offense 2 days to start sounds fair). And for people to say "just go to the fallen", the utter lack of people sucks, some of us like to watch the numbers but also like to interact with others, not to mention the extra cost of the subscription on a sub that's already borderline too high compared to every other online game. --[[User:GORTUNG\|GORTUNG]] ([[User talk:GORTUNG\|talk]]) 23:51, 7 January 2017 (CST)

	===Policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other===		===Policy enforcement needs to move one way or the other===

GORTUNG: /* Do away with script checks, encourage self-policing */

2017-01-08T05:39:22Z

Do away with script checks, encourage self-policing

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:39, 8 January 2017
Line 100:		Line 100:

	::Let's imagine a paradigm where script checks were modified to be a full five minutes of unambiguous OOC SENDs. Would this be more palatable to new players? Would inattentive or unsavvy players miss less checks? Would it waste less staff time? Any change in those parameters would be insignificant. And certainly script checks would remain a failed solution to a problem that amounts to a red herring. It's time to try something different.--[[User:MRTSCR\|MRTSCR]] ([[User talk:MRTSCR\|talk]]) 23:07, 23 October 2016 (CDT)		::Let's imagine a paradigm where script checks were modified to be a full five minutes of unambiguous OOC SENDs. Would this be more palatable to new players? Would inattentive or unsavvy players miss less checks? Would it waste less staff time? Any change in those parameters would be insignificant. And certainly script checks would remain a failed solution to a problem that amounts to a red herring. It's time to try something different.--[[User:MRTSCR\|MRTSCR]] ([[User talk:MRTSCR\|talk]]) 23:07, 23 October 2016 (CDT)

			::As someone who just recieved an afk warning on Jan 6, there was no bright colored text UNTIL I had recieved the warning. Was I afk? Yes, it was 6am I had fallen asleep, my fault completely. Now, I play a necro, 99% of the time I need to stay away from populated areas, the hunting ground I was using is very remote for these purposes, combine those and you have a very lonely progression which gets very boring so you end up watching the numbers or being a pain in the ass to everyone in town constantly. Was my script disrupting anyone at all? No. Was there a lack of hunting rooms? Definitely not as there's not that many people out here. Typing "attack" 80 billion times is not exciting, I've played off and on since 2000 so the combat messaging has more or less lost its fun factor in all its goriness. I've actually only been back for about a week after taking a few months off and am now contemplating quitting for good because I'd rather just quit where I'm at than take an exp/stat hit because I fell asleep again, like so many others over the years. Self-policing would alleviate this, someone finds me afk, they poke and prod and I don't respond so they take some vigilante justice to my face, sweet, good deal, I might lose a weapon, maybe try a new hunting ground, and just like necros get their names highlighted so they never get forgotten so will people highlight the names of afk people and I guarantee they'll get checked on by the populace. --[[User:GORTUNG\|GORTUNG]] ([[User talk:GORTUNG\|talk]]) 23:39, 7 January 2017 (CST)

	===Some characters receive more AFK checks than others===		===Some characters receive more AFK checks than others===

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:56, 10 January 2017
Line 136:		Line 136:
	===Implement diminishing returns===		===Implement diminishing returns===
	My proposed solution for updating the scripting policy is basically to disincentivize the kind of scripting that is game-unbalancing and disruptive to other players. I would not propose a change to overall scripting policy (except change to penalties which I'll address at the end), but it would allow better and more fair checks against scripters so that casual gamers would be less likely to have their immersion broken by disruptive script checks.		My proposed solution for updating the scripting policy is basically to disincentivize the kind of scripting that is game-unbalancing and disruptive to other players. I would not propose a change to overall scripting policy (except change to penalties which I'll address at the end), but it would allow better and more fair checks against scripters so that casual gamers would be less likely to have their immersion broken by disruptive script checks.
			<br><br>

	My solution is to implement penalties that impact how productive heavy-scripting can be as well as reduce the rewards for being a heavy-scripter. Rather than the old method of experience slow-downs (as it is already a crawl with a F2P account), I would propose the following reductions as a starting out point, but this is certainly open to additional suggestions:		My solution is to implement penalties that impact how productive heavy-scripting can be as well as reduce the rewards for being a heavy-scripter. Rather than the old method of experience slow-downs (as it is already a crawl with a F2P account), I would propose the following reductions as a starting out point, but this is certainly open to additional suggestions:<br>
	1. Reduced creature spawn rate that affects your room only, not the ground in general		- Reduced creature spawn rate that affects your room only, not the ground in general<br>
	2. Reduction of value of drops		- Reduction of value of drops<br>
	3. Reduction of payouts for contract trading		- Reduction of payouts for contract trading<br>
	4. Reduction of payouts for completed work orders		- Reduction of payouts for completed work orders<br>
	5. Reduction in experience gains from listening to classes		- Reduction in experience gains from listening to classes<br>
	6. Luck penalties if appropriate to whatever the Luck system becomes		- Luck penalties if appropriate to whatever the Luck system becomes
			<br><br>

	These penalties would be on a sliding, gradual scale. Let's say for simplicity's sake, we call this Shun, since that's basically what's going to happen to you. Basically you will be Shunned if you remain logged in constantly and training at all times beyond what a mortal IG and OOG could accomplish (think about it, 24 hours of hunting is literally 4 straight days in DR, and also 24 straight hours of a person hypothetically at the keyboard). You increase Shun for long duration spent logged in, but you shrug it off during times of non-training so that if you're the type to stay logged in to catch all the gweth chatter, you can do so freely. However, training also earns Shun which will then cause you to start outpacing how quickly you can shrug it off.		These penalties would be on a sliding, gradual scale. Let's say for simplicity's sake, we call this Shun, since that's basically what's going to happen to you. Basically you will be Shunned if you remain logged in constantly and training at all times beyond what a mortal IG and OOG could accomplish (think about it, 24 hours of hunting is literally 4 straight days in DR, and also 24 straight hours of a person hypothetically at the keyboard). You increase Shun for long duration spent logged in, but you shrug it off during times of non-training so that if you're the type to stay logged in to catch all the gweth chatter, you can do so freely. However, training also earns Shun which will then cause you to start outpacing how quickly you can shrug it off.
			<br><br>

	As a very basic example, consider you earn 1% Shun for every skill you have in field experience over [2/34] every 5 minutes and 50% shun every 4 hours. You shrug off 1 full Shun "point" every hour if training, or 50% of your Shun every hour if NO training is occurring. If you are training 10 skills actively, constantly, you will earn .2 Shun every hour, plus .5 every 4 hours. After 16 straight hours, you would be at 7.2 points of this. If training 35 skills, you gain 3.2 every hour, plus the .5 every 4 hours, so after 16 hours you would be at 55.2.		As a very basic example, consider you earn 1% Shun for every skill you have in field experience over [2/34] every 5 minutes and 50% shun every 4 hours. You shrug off 1 full Shun "point" every hour if training, or 50% of your Shun every hour if NO training is occurring. If you are training 10 skills actively, constantly, you will earn .2 Shun every hour, plus .5 every 4 hours. After 16 straight hours, you would be at 7.2 points of this. If training 35 skills, you gain 3.2 every hour, plus the .5 every 4 hours, so after 16 hours you would be at 55.2.
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	I would imagine 10 points would be a small, probably barely noticeable penalty and by the time you hit 40, it's getting pretty bad and at 80 you're barely getting any creatures and earning coppers on the silver of what you're used to. So 24 hours of really hard core training would pretty much necessitate a decently long break.		I would imagine 10 points would be a small, probably barely noticeable penalty and by the time you hit 40, it's getting pretty bad and at 80 you're barely getting any creatures and earning coppers on the silver of what you're used to. So 24 hours of really hard core training would pretty much necessitate a decently long break.
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	Benefits:		Benefits:<br>
	- It disincentives long-term heavy scripting by creating tangible penalties to monetary gains from people who non stop hunt or non stop craft AND it prevents people from circumventing it by merely swapping back and forth between the hunt and the craft hall.		- It disincentives long-term heavy scripting by creating tangible penalties to monetary gains from people who non stop hunt or non stop craft AND it prevents people from circumventing it by merely swapping back and forth between the hunt and the craft hall.
	- To that point, the penalties are results-affecting instead of process-affecting so clever-er scripts like those that check for mind locks or full pouches won't help.		- To that point, the penalties are results-affecting instead of process-affecting so clever-er scripts like those that check for mind locks or full pouches won't help. <br>
	- It makes it increasingly more difficult to make good returns on combat training in particular as spawn rate and the ability to keep combat skills locked will be reduced. This is the biggest source of salt when people say afk scripting disrupts game balance. You can't bully people with knitting needles.		- It makes it increasingly more difficult to make good returns on combat training in particular as spawn rate and the ability to keep combat skills locked will be reduced. This is the biggest source of salt when people say afk scripting disrupts game balance. You can't bully people with knitting needles.<br>
	- It makes it easy to identify abusive scripters simply by auditing Shun levels. See a player with 60 Shun? Maybe give them a little nudge. Players who script but aren't super good at it can still get checked and may still rise to those kinds of high levels, but they won't necessarily be bright on the radar.		- It makes it easy to identify abusive scripters simply by auditing Shun levels. See a player with 60 Shun? Maybe give them a little nudge. Players who script but aren't super good at it can still get checked and may still rise to those kinds of high levels, but they won't necessarily be bright on the radar.<br>
	- It leaves it still very possible for people to remain logged in at all times as long as they are still exhibiting some balance of training and not.		- It leaves it still very possible for people to remain logged in at all times as long as they are still exhibiting some balance of training and not.
	- Depending on what Luck affects, it could provide an additional outlet for this attribute.		- Depending on what Luck affects, it could provide an additional outlet for this attribute.<br>
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	As for the penalties for scripting, I do feel that skill and stat loss is too extreme even for repeat offenders, as properly executed, this system would significantly reduce one's ability to grind away for days or weeks on end and unbalance the game, so massively abusing afk scripting policy is sort of nonsensical anyway. I think penalties should begin with dumping a lot of Shun on a player, then penalizing their Luck, then giving stat and skill Debuffs of increasing durations and scope. Maybe first infraction is 100 Shun and some bad luck. Then maybe 200 Shun, bad luck, and -5% to all skills for 72 hours. Third time could be -10% to stats, -10% to skills for 10 days, etc.		As for the penalties for scripting, I do feel that skill and stat loss is too extreme even for repeat offenders, as properly executed, this system would significantly reduce one's ability to grind away for days or weeks on end and unbalance the game, so massively abusing afk scripting policy is sort of nonsensical anyway. I think penalties should begin with dumping a lot of Shun on a player, then penalizing their Luck, then giving stat and skill Debuffs of increasing durations and scope. Maybe first infraction is 100 Shun and some bad luck. Then maybe 200 Shun, bad luck, and -5% to all skills for 72 hours. Third time could be -10% to stats, -10% to skills for 10 days, etc.

	Bonus ideas: Empathic shock for high Shun? Would discourage healer bots. Increased favor costs for high Shun to discourage people just dumping exp into orbs when they start to get into the red zone.		Bonus ideas: Empathic shock for high Shun? Would discourage healer bots. Increased favor costs for high Shun to discourage people just dumping exp into orbs when they start to get into the red zone.--[[User:PEANUTBRITTLE\|PEANUTBRITTLE]] ([[User talk:PEANUTBRITTLE\|talk]]) 21:56, 10 January 2017 (CST)