Elanthipedia - User contributions [en]

Category talk:News

2016-09-17T11:23:43Z

WHITEBEAUTY:

== Titles for News articles ==

As we create more and more News items and policies get added, I think we should standardize on a naming structure. I think it would be best to be consistent with other conventions on the forum (e.g. [[:Elanthipedia:Manual_of_Style/Posts|Posts]]) where we do two things:

*Dates in titles should be MM/DD/YYYY as they appear elsewhere on the wiki.
*I'm not sure that the "Dateline" that is in most articles is valuable either for searching or sorting items within the category, could this be dropped?
*Do we need to have the names in ALL CAPS?
*:Should we just follow [[Elanthipedia:Manual_of_Style#Naming|standard naming policy]] where you capitalize the first word, and then only proper names?

I'd like to propose a new format such as ''News:<title>_-_MM/DD/YYYY''. Example: ''<nowiki>News:How_to_transfer_characters_between_accounts_-_08/16/2011</nowiki>''

By no means should this be seen as the standard, I'm just trying to open a discussion that hopefully one day makes it into the Manual of Style. - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 10:12, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

:I'm fine with changes. As I started the current project rolling, here was my thought process:
:: I changed the date to the one we're using (YYYY/MM/DD) so that viewed on a category list, things will show up chronologically. That's just a personal OCD peeve I have, when things are grouped together by months but are years apart.
:: I just took, verbatim, the title line from the actual in-game NEWS articles and made that the page title (with the above DATE modification), with the addition of "NEWS:" preceding it. So, that includes the word "Dateline".
: As per GM [[Lyneya]]'s recent post, all the policy changes, and I suspect the related NEWS articles, are going to be updated. So it might even be a good time to make suggestions that get rolled into the IG POLICY and NEWS systems for better formatting there that makes wiki-ing those articles more streamlined.
: Also, I feel that getting these articles up is the 1st phase of this project. Each of the current REDIRECT pages (ie. News 5 1) I hope in phase 2 to turn into DISAMBIG pages as updated NEWS articles replace the current ones.
: --[[Kythryn]] 10:24, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

::Perhaps we just make this easier and take the date out of the title? For example, in game there is only one version of NEWS 4 10 that is updated every month. If we only keep the latest NEWS/POLICY on the page ''News 4 22 - <title>'' and let the page history take care of the versioning? In this way, if someone types "news 4 22" into the search bar, the result is auto-suggested. It also means not having to update any redirects every time the NEWS/POLICY is updated. Thoughts? - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 10:48, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

::: Unfortunately, I am heading out of town here in a couple hours and won't have internet access, so this will be my last "chime in".
::: We can certainly do the above suggestion (no date), or change the title layout. I was following the general idea of "exact documentation", like we do with forum posts (we don't MOS those titles either (ex. [[Post:IMPORTANT: The EXP system, Elanthia, and you. - 5/13/2009 - 23:02:07]])), simply use the title of the actual forum post + <date/time>.
::: If we do choose to have the HISTORY log changes, can that be found via a SEARCH? For example, if someone searches for "Bard Hodierna's Lilt" and the current [[News 3 3]] comes up, will it continue to show up on a SEARCH once that article has been written over? We had talked about this when making up pages...some of these that are pretty static (like the category 5 ones) could be "stand alone" with no dates. But, there are other categories that get new articles frequently. I was thinking about those for the long-term documentation. So, since the NEWS system as a whole should be consistent with all the articles over all 5 categories, we need to have a naming system that works for all the types of articles IMO.
::: Anyhow, whatever you and Mistanna (and anyone else that chimes in on this) decide to do is fine with me! --[[Kythryn]] 11:25, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

::::Page history is not typically searched, so if we treat NEWS items like a command pages and it was changed, the old content would not show up. The real question is do we tread these pages like Posts (with dates, and have to maintain a redirect to the latest one), or do we treat them like command pages? Right now we're doing a little of both. - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 11:29, 31 August 2016 (CDT)
:::::Re: archiving historical news article contents - News articles can be archived using via use of an archive sub-page. See [[User_talk:CARAAMON/Archive]] for an example. These still show up in a search, with the archive sup-page clearly visible. A link at the top of the page can link to the archive page indicating that there are archived versions available to peruse. See [[User_talk:CARAAMON]] for an example of such a link. I recommend using this format of archival.
:::::As for page naming, I think we should take out the date as well since the date is not in the title of the news article. I.e. we don't see the date when typing {{com|news}} on its own, only seeing it when we actually type {{com|news}} {{tt|1 1}} for example. (To compare, posts sort of have the date in their title on the forums.) Post dates are also fixed, whereas news article dates change despite being named the same. This is better suited to having the date be in the body of the article rather than the title so that we don't end up with multiple copies of each news article floating around out there.
:::::With regards to using all caps or not in the page name, either way works for me. The news article in game is titled in all caps, and when quoting in game things we typically tend to retain capitalization. E.g. post names, messaging quirks, etc. As a personal preference, however, all caps does look annoying so I would actually be okay with formatting it with proper sentence form like we do with most page names. Taking both of those into account, if I was making the sole decision I would lean towards proper sentence form. E.g. <nowiki>[[News:Dateline_2002/01/02:_ACCOUNT_INFORMATION_UPDATES]]</nowiki> should be <nowiki>[[NEWS 5 20 - Account information updates]]</nowiki>. (Note the removal of the colon. This is a troublesome character to have in a page name due to how it gets used by the wiki.) Or if simply using the shortest possible form then just NEWS 1 1, although I do think that is too short of a name since it's nice to have the brief descriptor of what the news article is about.
:::::P.S. I will add this to the manual of style once we can agree on a good format and method of archiving.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 11:46, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

If we have the article title in the url aren't we just back to having to have redirects from the main NEWS page? I'd think that just having the url as ie. https://elanthipedia.play.net/News_2_17 might be best, with the title and date of the article boldly at the top. We don't have to update news 4, that changes too often so I put a link to the DR Calendar there. For history, we could either just move down the previous news like we do on the [[vision list]] page and put the new news entry at the top, or do the archive page. Neither of those sound like too much work once they're set up. I do think having the year first for the 'category' helps with finding more relevant info though instead of sorting by month, but either way we decide to store 'old info' will probably be fine as most all of these news articles are probably going to see updates. --[[User:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|BLADEDBUTTERFLY]] ([[User talk:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|talk]]) 12:57, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

:"If we have the article title in the url aren't we just back to having to have redirects from the main NEWS page?"
:Maybe I'm not not understanding what you mean, but this is what it is now with the new format too. If we want to get rid of redirects on a specific page because it's preferable to link directly then we just change the links on the page to directly link to where we want it to go. And the redirect page itself would still be useful even on its own if it's not linked to on any page. For instance, you can type NEWS 1 1 into the search bar and the NEWS 1 1 page would redirect to the article with the full name such as [[NEWS 1 1 - Welcome to DragonRealms]], assuming that was what pagename format was decided on, even if no page had a direct link to [[NEWS 1 1]]. Redirects themselves are a good thing to have on a wiki and shouldn't be avoided. The general rule of thumb is if in doubt, create a redirect.
:The reason why I suggest having the article title in the pagename is simply for informational purposes for a wiki user. NEWS 1 1 on its own isn't very informative, but NEWS 1 1 - Welcome to DragonRealms is. Also, it's (effectively) what the news article is titled in game when you type {{com|news}} and I'm inclined to use it simply on that basis because it's generally how we handle naming of pages of things that can be found in game.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 13:35, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

At this point is anyone against standardizing on ''NEWS_#_#_-_<title>'' for all NEWS/POLICY pages? - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 14:05, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

::That sounds okay to me! Redirects seem pretty easy for if titles change, but I'll let you guys handle the first bunch of page changes, I'm pretty newb and just copy pasting mostly for the document migration. I finished a couple more sections, only News 5 is left. If you guys can get a few pages done that I can copy for the rest of the policy documents, I'll use the new format for those once I get back here in an couple hours. Yay almost done with the first part! --[[User:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|BLADEDBUTTERFLY]] ([[User talk:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|talk]]) 14:24, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

:::Happy to do the page movement and fixing redirects work, but it appears we can't Move pages now (see [[Elanthipedia_Bugs#Page_Movement_Errors]]). Until this is fixed, can we just make sure to create new pages with the new format? - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 16:00, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

Okay, 5-26 through 5-39 I tried to put in the correct new format. On 5 37 I typoed glass as class in the url, opps. Can whoever does the page changes also change the redirects with a : before the news to match the redirects I put in for 26-39? I left those : links on the page active for now. There's one or two in there where we forgot to put the year first, the very first one 'welcome to dragonrealms' has two identical pages so one could get deleted. Please let me know of any mistakes I didn't catch so I can edit better as this is going to be an ongoing project with lots of changes as things get rewritten. Yay first stage of data migration complete! --[[User:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|BLADEDBUTTERFLY]] ([[User talk:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|talk]]) 23:01, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

== News Rewrite ==

As far as the in game NEWS command and Lyneya's request for a discussion on the topic is concerned, I feel that the articles could use some serious purging and updating on the whole. As it stands the majority just serve to create a huge wall of outdated text. Things like guild updates are sparse and don't seem to contain some of the most important updates pertaining to guild releases. If these were actually updated consistently, they would be handy, but at the moment there's just not much valuable information. Anything regarding policy should be removed from NEWS and addressed under the POLICY command. I'd rather see options via NEWS that pertain to thing like GM Announcements so that I can check those in game without navigating to the forums. In game events are handy to have, but it doesn't show special events like Duskruin and HE. Overall I just feel like the current news articles are in need of a serious cleaning of house, NEWS should pertain to actual news and updates to the game rather than being used as a policy addendum. --[[User:WHITEBEAUTY|WHITEBEAUTY]] ([[User talk:WHITEBEAUTY|talk]]) 00:22, 17 September 2016 (CDT)

Talk:News 5 25 - Consent policy: questions and answers

2016-09-17T11:09:34Z

WHITEBEAUTY: /* Discussion */

==General Comments==
'''Please keep discussion on this issue to the specific topic of the page title. Other [[News command|News]] subjects can be discussed on the other appropriate news pages. '''
 
ANYONE CONTRIBUTING TO THE NEWS DISCUSSION PLEASE READ: 
* Do NOT edit or delete anyone else's contribution. 
* Do NOT hold debates or conversations. 
* You CAN edit your own contribution if you think of more to say. 
* Make sure to add a signature to your contribution so it is easier to find. 
:* To sign your contribution, click the signature button, second from the right at the top of the editing window. (note: if the button is not showing up, the code is <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki> to add a signature) 
* Finally... always make sure to preview BEFORE you save! 
Thanks! --[[Kythryn]] 17:06, 8 September 2016 (CDT)

==Discussion==
Overall I think that NEWS 5 25 does a good job of clarifying specific consent situations, however I did find some contradictions between scenarios found in NEWS 5 15, NEWS 5 24 and NEWS 5 25. It doesn't make much difference to me which rules are chosen moving forward so much as I'd like to see less gray areas like these that can be left open to interpretation. 
From NEWS 5 24: 
''Spells that do not cause *direct* harm to the target do not provide consent UNLESS they are being used as a means to do harm to the target, harass the target, or in an abuse/theft type of situation.'' 
From NEWS 5 25: 
''But it wasn't harmful ... it was a helpful spell. Is *that* consent? YES'' 
From NEWS 5 15: 
''If one person steals from another, and the victim decides to pursue that by attacking the pickpocket, when that combat reaches a conclusion, consent is over. Who wins the combat does not matter, once it has ended, consent is over.'' 
From NEWS 5 24: 
''In cases of theft however, for as long as the thief retains what was stolen, they are operating under implied consent and the victim has the right to try and retrieve their things in an IC setting. This means it is NOT satisfied by one death if the thief retains the items or coins.'' --[[User:WHITEBEAUTY|WHITEBEAUTY]] ([[User talk:WHITEBEAUTY|talk]]) 05:53, 17 September 2016 (CDT)

Talk:News 5 25 - Consent policy: questions and answers

2016-09-17T10:53:10Z

WHITEBEAUTY:

==General Comments==
'''Please keep discussion on this issue to the specific topic of the page title. Other [[News command|News]] subjects can be discussed on the other appropriate news pages. '''
 
ANYONE CONTRIBUTING TO THE NEWS DISCUSSION PLEASE READ: 
* Do NOT edit or delete anyone else's contribution. 
* Do NOT hold debates or conversations. 
* You CAN edit your own contribution if you think of more to say. 
* Make sure to add a signature to your contribution so it is easier to find. 
:* To sign your contribution, click the signature button, second from the right at the top of the editing window. (note: if the button is not showing up, the code is <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki> to add a signature) 
* Finally... always make sure to preview BEFORE you save! 
Thanks! --[[Kythryn]] 17:06, 8 September 2016 (CDT)

==Discussion==
Overall I think that NEWS 5 25 does a good job of clarifying specific consent situations, however I did find some contradictions between scenarios found in both NEWS 5 24 and NEWS 5 25. It doesn't make much difference to me which rules are chosen moving forward so much as I'd like to see less gray areas like these that can be left open to interpretation. 
From NEWS 5 24: 
''Spells that do not cause *direct* harm to the target do not provide consent UNLESS they are being used as a means to do harm to the target, harass the target, or in an abuse/theft type of situation.'' 
From NEWS 5 25: 
''But it wasn't harmful ... it was a helpful spell. Is *that* consent? YES'' 
From NEWS 5 24: 
''In cases of theft however, for as long as the thief retains what was stolen, they are operating under implied consent and the victim has the right to try and retrieve their things in an IC setting. This means it is NOT satisfied by one death if the thief retains the items or coins.'' 
From NEWS 5 25: 
''I stole from you. I therefore gave you consent to retaliate with violence. When you attack me violently, I DO have the right to defend myself. But when you kill me, that's it, it's over.'' --[[User:WHITEBEAUTY|WHITEBEAUTY]] ([[User talk:WHITEBEAUTY|talk]]) 05:53, 17 September 2016 (CDT)

Category talk:News

2016-09-17T05:22:10Z

WHITEBEAUTY:

== Titles for News articles ==

As we create more and more News items and policies get added, I think we should standardize on a naming structure. I think it would be best to be consistent with other conventions on the forum (e.g. [[:Elanthipedia:Manual_of_Style/Posts|Posts]]) where we do two things:

*Dates in titles should be MM/DD/YYYY as they appear elsewhere on the wiki.
*I'm not sure that the "Dateline" that is in most articles is valuable either for searching or sorting items within the category, could this be dropped?
*Do we need to have the names in ALL CAPS?
*:Should we just follow [[Elanthipedia:Manual_of_Style#Naming|standard naming policy]] where you capitalize the first word, and then only proper names?

I'd like to propose a new format such as ''News:<title>_-_MM/DD/YYYY''. Example: ''<nowiki>News:How_to_transfer_characters_between_accounts_-_08/16/2011</nowiki>''

By no means should this be seen as the standard, I'm just trying to open a discussion that hopefully one day makes it into the Manual of Style. - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 10:12, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

:I'm fine with changes. As I started the current project rolling, here was my thought process:
:: I changed the date to the one we're using (YYYY/MM/DD) so that viewed on a category list, things will show up chronologically. That's just a personal OCD peeve I have, when things are grouped together by months but are years apart.
:: I just took, verbatim, the title line from the actual in-game NEWS articles and made that the page title (with the above DATE modification), with the addition of "NEWS:" preceding it. So, that includes the word "Dateline".
: As per GM [[Lyneya]]'s recent post, all the policy changes, and I suspect the related NEWS articles, are going to be updated. So it might even be a good time to make suggestions that get rolled into the IG POLICY and NEWS systems for better formatting there that makes wiki-ing those articles more streamlined.
: Also, I feel that getting these articles up is the 1st phase of this project. Each of the current REDIRECT pages (ie. News 5 1) I hope in phase 2 to turn into DISAMBIG pages as updated NEWS articles replace the current ones.
: --[[Kythryn]] 10:24, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

::Perhaps we just make this easier and take the date out of the title? For example, in game there is only one version of NEWS 4 10 that is updated every month. If we only keep the latest NEWS/POLICY on the page ''News 4 22 - <title>'' and let the page history take care of the versioning? In this way, if someone types "news 4 22" into the search bar, the result is auto-suggested. It also means not having to update any redirects every time the NEWS/POLICY is updated. Thoughts? - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 10:48, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

::: Unfortunately, I am heading out of town here in a couple hours and won't have internet access, so this will be my last "chime in".
::: We can certainly do the above suggestion (no date), or change the title layout. I was following the general idea of "exact documentation", like we do with forum posts (we don't MOS those titles either (ex. [[Post:IMPORTANT: The EXP system, Elanthia, and you. - 5/13/2009 - 23:02:07]])), simply use the title of the actual forum post + <date/time>.
::: If we do choose to have the HISTORY log changes, can that be found via a SEARCH? For example, if someone searches for "Bard Hodierna's Lilt" and the current [[News 3 3]] comes up, will it continue to show up on a SEARCH once that article has been written over? We had talked about this when making up pages...some of these that are pretty static (like the category 5 ones) could be "stand alone" with no dates. But, there are other categories that get new articles frequently. I was thinking about those for the long-term documentation. So, since the NEWS system as a whole should be consistent with all the articles over all 5 categories, we need to have a naming system that works for all the types of articles IMO.
::: Anyhow, whatever you and Mistanna (and anyone else that chimes in on this) decide to do is fine with me! --[[Kythryn]] 11:25, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

::::Page history is not typically searched, so if we treat NEWS items like a command pages and it was changed, the old content would not show up. The real question is do we tread these pages like Posts (with dates, and have to maintain a redirect to the latest one), or do we treat them like command pages? Right now we're doing a little of both. - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 11:29, 31 August 2016 (CDT)
:::::Re: archiving historical news article contents - News articles can be archived using via use of an archive sub-page. See [[User_talk:CARAAMON/Archive]] for an example. These still show up in a search, with the archive sup-page clearly visible. A link at the top of the page can link to the archive page indicating that there are archived versions available to peruse. See [[User_talk:CARAAMON]] for an example of such a link. I recommend using this format of archival.
:::::As for page naming, I think we should take out the date as well since the date is not in the title of the news article. I.e. we don't see the date when typing {{com|news}} on its own, only seeing it when we actually type {{com|news}} {{tt|1 1}} for example. (To compare, posts sort of have the date in their title on the forums.) Post dates are also fixed, whereas news article dates change despite being named the same. This is better suited to having the date be in the body of the article rather than the title so that we don't end up with multiple copies of each news article floating around out there.
:::::With regards to using all caps or not in the page name, either way works for me. The news article in game is titled in all caps, and when quoting in game things we typically tend to retain capitalization. E.g. post names, messaging quirks, etc. As a personal preference, however, all caps does look annoying so I would actually be okay with formatting it with proper sentence form like we do with most page names. Taking both of those into account, if I was making the sole decision I would lean towards proper sentence form. E.g. <nowiki>[[News:Dateline_2002/01/02:_ACCOUNT_INFORMATION_UPDATES]]</nowiki> should be <nowiki>[[NEWS 5 20 - Account information updates]]</nowiki>. (Note the removal of the colon. This is a troublesome character to have in a page name due to how it gets used by the wiki.) Or if simply using the shortest possible form then just NEWS 1 1, although I do think that is too short of a name since it's nice to have the brief descriptor of what the news article is about.
:::::P.S. I will add this to the manual of style once we can agree on a good format and method of archiving.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 11:46, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

If we have the article title in the url aren't we just back to having to have redirects from the main NEWS page? I'd think that just having the url as ie. https://elanthipedia.play.net/News_2_17 might be best, with the title and date of the article boldly at the top. We don't have to update news 4, that changes too often so I put a link to the DR Calendar there. For history, we could either just move down the previous news like we do on the [[vision list]] page and put the new news entry at the top, or do the archive page. Neither of those sound like too much work once they're set up. I do think having the year first for the 'category' helps with finding more relevant info though instead of sorting by month, but either way we decide to store 'old info' will probably be fine as most all of these news articles are probably going to see updates. --[[User:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|BLADEDBUTTERFLY]] ([[User talk:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|talk]]) 12:57, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

:"If we have the article title in the url aren't we just back to having to have redirects from the main NEWS page?"
:Maybe I'm not not understanding what you mean, but this is what it is now with the new format too. If we want to get rid of redirects on a specific page because it's preferable to link directly then we just change the links on the page to directly link to where we want it to go. And the redirect page itself would still be useful even on its own if it's not linked to on any page. For instance, you can type NEWS 1 1 into the search bar and the NEWS 1 1 page would redirect to the article with the full name such as [[NEWS 1 1 - Welcome to DragonRealms]], assuming that was what pagename format was decided on, even if no page had a direct link to [[NEWS 1 1]]. Redirects themselves are a good thing to have on a wiki and shouldn't be avoided. The general rule of thumb is if in doubt, create a redirect.
:The reason why I suggest having the article title in the pagename is simply for informational purposes for a wiki user. NEWS 1 1 on its own isn't very informative, but NEWS 1 1 - Welcome to DragonRealms is. Also, it's (effectively) what the news article is titled in game when you type {{com|news}} and I'm inclined to use it simply on that basis because it's generally how we handle naming of pages of things that can be found in game.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 13:35, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

At this point is anyone against standardizing on ''NEWS_#_#_-_<title>'' for all NEWS/POLICY pages? - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 14:05, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

::That sounds okay to me! Redirects seem pretty easy for if titles change, but I'll let you guys handle the first bunch of page changes, I'm pretty newb and just copy pasting mostly for the document migration. I finished a couple more sections, only News 5 is left. If you guys can get a few pages done that I can copy for the rest of the policy documents, I'll use the new format for those once I get back here in an couple hours. Yay almost done with the first part! --[[User:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|BLADEDBUTTERFLY]] ([[User talk:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|talk]]) 14:24, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

:::Happy to do the page movement and fixing redirects work, but it appears we can't Move pages now (see [[Elanthipedia_Bugs#Page_Movement_Errors]]). Until this is fixed, can we just make sure to create new pages with the new format? - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 16:00, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

Okay, 5-26 through 5-39 I tried to put in the correct new format. On 5 37 I typoed glass as class in the url, opps. Can whoever does the page changes also change the redirects with a : before the news to match the redirects I put in for 26-39? I left those : links on the page active for now. There's one or two in there where we forgot to put the year first, the very first one 'welcome to dragonrealms' has two identical pages so one could get deleted. Please let me know of any mistakes I didn't catch so I can edit better as this is going to be an ongoing project with lots of changes as things get rewritten. Yay first stage of data migration complete! --[[User:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|BLADEDBUTTERFLY]] ([[User talk:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|talk]]) 23:01, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

As far as the in game NEWS command and Lyneya's request for a discussion on the topic is concerned, I think that the articles could use some serious purging and updating on the whole. As it stands it's basically just a huge wall of outdated text. Things like guild updates are sparse and don't seem to contain some of the most important updates pertaining to guild releases. If these were actually updated consistently, they would be handy, but at the moment there's just not much valuable information. Anything regarding policy should be removed from NEWS and addressed under the POLICY command. I'd rather see options via NEWS that pertain to thing like GM Announcements so that I can check those in game without navigating to the forums. In game events are handy to have, but it doesn't show special events like Duskruin and HE. Overall I just feel like the current news articles are in need of a serious cleaning of house, NEWS should pertain to actual news and updates to the game rather than being used as a policy addendum. --[[User:WHITEBEAUTY|WHITEBEAUTY]] ([[User talk:WHITEBEAUTY|talk]]) 00:22, 17 September 2016 (CDT)

Talk:Policy:Player vs player conflict

2016-09-17T04:57:48Z

WHITEBEAUTY:

==General Comments==
'''Please keep discussion on this issue to the specific topic of the page title. Other [[Policy command|Policy]] subjects can be discussed on the other appropriate policy pages. '''

ANYONE CONTRIBUTING TO THE POLICY DISCUSSION PLEASE READ:
Do NOT edit or delete anyone else's contribution.
Do NOT hold debates or conversations.
You CAN edit your own contribution if you think of more to say.
Make sure to add a signature to your contribution so it is easier to find.
Click the signature button, second from the right at the top of the editing window.
Finally... always make sure to preview BEFORE you save!
Thanks! --[[User:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|BLADEDBUTTERFLY]] ([[User talk:BLADEDBUTTERFLY|talk]]) 00:36, 31 August 2016 (CDT)

==Discussion==
I would like there to be clear and consistent rules regarding aggressive but non-damaging magic/abilities. We say kicking, punching, slapping grants consent to be engaged in PvP by the "injured." Thumping also grants consent when the sole consequence is the inability to speak for a time, yet stunning, sleeping, and paralyzing renders the person incapable of ANY action for a time and they seem to be generally allowed and do not grant consent. Likewise, non-damaging hostile magic like debuffs have had fuzzy rules set to them. --[[User:NECKHOFF|NECKHOFF]] ([[User talk:NECKHOFF|talk]]) 22:51, 1 September 2016 (CDT)

Regarding the changes to depart/grip mechanics, I like this change. I question though if grave-robbing is necessary at all in this game. It is a relic of a 20 year old policy written when 99% of items were replaceable. Today with all the custom, altered, raffle, auction, rare-material items out there, it can pretty much ruin your entire gaming experience to have your things taken. Is there the possibility of eliminating grave-robbing entirely? It doesn't seem really that necessary anymore. --[[User:NECKHOFF|NECKHOFF]] ([[User talk:NECKHOFF|talk]]) 22:51, 1 September 2016 (CDT)

Consistency and sensibility about what can be forcibly wedged into consent could also use a bit of cleaning up. You don't own a room and can't commit violence to someone for being in 'your' hunting spot if they're not interfering, taking your loot or killing your critters - however, apparently you CAN commit violence if against someone if you give them clear warning you will kill them for doing actions such as speaking or gwething and this has been upheld as allowed. On a similar vein, you can of course kill an empath who is healing your opponent or others who are aiding her or him, but I've also witnessed it be allowed to kill clerics for raising a dead body or empaths for healing a dead body. These can be grey areas for sure, but is there a reason they need to be? --[[User:NECKHOFF|NECKHOFF]] ([[User talk:NECKHOFF|talk]]) 01:09, 2 September 2016 (CDT)

I agree with NECKHOFF on all accounts. I would very much like to see grave-robbing removed entirely because, as stated, the proliferation of valuable items has made it too punitive. Other death/resurrection mechanics to increase death's difficulty would be welcome, although we should consider them carefully. I'm especially concerned that if death causes too much permanent damage it will make griefing more prevalent. As for the clarity of the rules, it would be nice to have some kind of chart somewhere. Finally, I would especially like to see some clarity on the rules of harassment. I realize that what constitutes harassment may be best left as a judgment call, but some kind of general guideline about how often one person can attack another would be welcome. --[[User:PRIMEQ|PRIMEQ]] ([[User talk:PRIMEQ|talk]]) 21:04, 3 September 2016 (CDT)

I agree that there should be clearly defined and consistent rules surrounding PvP and consent policy. The details of the consent policy should be made completely available via the POLICY verb and not something that also requires the browsing of multiple NEWS items to supplement the information. PvP stances should be updated and the GUARDED stance should be removed completely. If a CLOSED player initiates an attack on an OPEN player their stance should be set to OPEN for a set period of time. If a CLOSED player attacks another CLOSED player the stance should not be changed as it should be considered RP conflict. Likewise, if an OPEN player initiates an attack on a CLOSED player for any reason it would not affect their stance, even if they choose to retaliate (within "X" minutes, preferably). --[[User:WHITEBEAUTY|WHITEBEAUTY]] ([[User talk:WHITEBEAUTY|talk]]) 23:57, 16 September 2016 (CDT)