Elanthipedia - User contributions [en]

Blacksmithing products

2017-11-27T05:45:20Z

RCANINE: /* Engineering Tools */

{{RTOC}}
These are the items that can currently be produced by the [[Blacksmithing discipline]]. 

==Mining Tools==
{| border="1" class="wikitable sortable"
! Chapter !! Item !! Book !! Difficulty || Specialty[[#Notations|*]] || Notes || Technique || Volume
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|curved shovel (crafted)|curved ''<metal>'' shovel}} || Apprentice || 03 - Easy || Durability || || Basic Forging Design || 8
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|stout pickaxe (crafted)|stout ''<metal>'' pickaxe}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Durability || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|square shovel (crafted)|square ''<metal>'' shovel}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Balanced || || Basic Forging Design || 8
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|narrow pickaxe (crafted)|narrow ''<metal>'' pickaxe}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Speed || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|tapered shovel (crafted)|tapered ''<metal>'' shovel}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Speed || || Basic Forging Design || 8
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|slender pickaxe (crafted)|slender ''<metal>'' pickaxe}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || Speed || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|sturdy shovel (crafted)|sturdy ''<metal>'' shovel}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Durability || || Basic Forging Design || 8
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|flat-headed pickaxe (crafted)|flat-headed ''<metal>'' pickaxe}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Durability || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|wide shovel (crafted)|wide ''<metal>'' shovel}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Speed || || Basic Forging Design || 8
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|weighted pickaxe (crafted)|weighted ''<metal>'' pickaxe}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || Speed || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|}

==Forging Tools==
{| border="1" class="wikitable sortable"
! Chapter !! Item !! Book !! Difficulty || Specialty[[#Notations|*]] || Notes || Technique || Volume
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|diagonal-peen mallet (crafted)|''<metal>'' diagonal-peen mallet}} || Apprentice || 02 - Very Easy || Durability || || Basic Forging Design || 12
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|diagonal-peen hammer (crafted)|''<metal>'' diagonal-peen hammer}} || Apprentice || 03 - Easy || Durability || || Basic Forging Design || 12
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|straight tongs (crafted)|straight ''<metal>'' tongs}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Balanced || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|cross-peen hammer (crafted)|''<metal>'' cross-peen hammer}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Balanced || || Basic Forging Design || 12
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|curved tongs (crafted)|curved ''<metal>'' tongs}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Speed || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|flat-bladed tongs (crafted)|''<metal>'' flat-bladed tongs}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Speed || {{com|adjust}} to make shovel || Expert Tool Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|angular tongs (crafted)|angular ''<metal>'' tongs}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Durability || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|straight-peen hammer (crafted)|''<metal>'' straight-peen hammer}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Durability || || Basic Forging Design || 12
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|straight-peen mallet (crafted)|''<metal>'' straight-peen mallet}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || Durability || || Basic Forging Design || 12
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|bolt tongs (crafted)|''<metal>'' bolt tongs}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || Durability || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|ball-peen hammer (crafted)|''<metal>'' ball-peen hammer}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Speed || || Basic Forging Design || 12
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|segmented tongs (crafted)|''<metal>'' segmented tongs}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Durability || Shoulder worn || Expert Tool Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|box-jaw tongs (crafted)|''<metal>'' box-jaw tongs}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || Speed || || Proficient Forging Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|articulated tongs (crafted)|''<metal>'' articulated tongs}} || Master || 11 - Very Difficult || Speed || Shoulder worn {{com|adjust}} to make shovel || Expert Tool Design || 10
|-
| 2 || {{ilink|i|ball-peen mallet (crafted)|''<metal>'' ball-peen mallet}} || Master || 12 - Extremely Difficult || Speed || || Basic Forging Design || 12
|}

==Engineering Tools==
{| border="1" class="wikitable sortable"
! Chapter !! Item !! Book !! Difficulty || Specialty[[#Notations|*]] || Technique || Volume
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|short drawknife (crafted)|short ''<metal>'' drawknife}} || Apprentice || 03 - Easy || Durability || Basic Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|short chisels (crafted)|short ''<metal>'' chisels}} || Apprentice || 03 - Easy || Durability || Basic Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|long drawknife (crafted)|long ''<metal>'' drawknife}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Speed || Basic Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|straight wood saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' straight wood saw}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|straight bone saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' straight bone saw}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|thin rasp (crafted)|thin ''<metal>'' rasp}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Balanced || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|square rifflers (crafted)|square ''<metal>'' rifflers}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|long chisels (crafted)|long ''<metal>'' chisels}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Speed || Basic Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|flat shaper (crafted)|flat ''<metal>'' shaper}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 4
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|plain pliers (crafted)|plain ''<metal>'' pliers}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|squat rifflers (crafted)|squat ''<metal>'' rifflers}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|rough wood shaper (crafted)|rough ''<metal>'' wood shaper}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 4
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|sturdy drawknife (crafted)|sturdy ''<metal>'' drawknife}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Speed || Basic Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|curved wood saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' curved wood saw}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Balanced || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|curved bone saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' curved bone saw}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Balanced || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|curved pliers (crafted)|curved ''<metal>'' pliers}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Balanced || Basic Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|coarse rasp (crafted)|coarse ''<metal>'' rasp}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|sturdy chisels (crafted)|sturdy ''<metal>'' chisels}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Speed || Basic Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|curved rifflers (crafted)|curved ''<metal>'' rifflers}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|reinforced chisels (crafted)|reinforced ''<metal>'' chisels}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || Durability || Basic Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|sharpened drawknife (crafted)|sharpened ''<metal>'' drawknife}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Speed || Basic Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|slender wood saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' slender wood saw}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|slender bone saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' slender bone saw}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|rough pliers (crafted)|rough ''<metal>'' pliers}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Durability || Basic Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|textured rasp (crafted)|textured ''<metal>'' rasp}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|beveled wood shaper (crafted)|''<metal>'' beveled wood shaper}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 4
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|thick pliers (crafted)|thick ''<metal>'' pliers}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Durability || Basic Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|flat rasp (crafted)|flat ''<metal>'' rasp}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|elongated rifflers (crafted)|elongated ''<metal>'' rifflers}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|sharpened chisels (crafted)|sharpened ''<metal>'' chisels}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Speed || Basic Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|tapered wood saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' tapered wood saw}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|tapered bone saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' tapered bone saw}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || Durability || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|hooked pliers (crafted)|hooked ''<metal>'' pliers}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || Speed || Basic Engineering Design || 5
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|tapered rasp (crafted)|tapered ''<metal>'' rasp}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|jagged wood shaper (crafted)|''<metal>'' jagged wood shaper}} || Master || 11 - Very Difficult || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 4
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|serrated wood saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' serrated wood saw}} || Master || 11 - Very Difficult || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|-
| 3 || {{ilink|i|serrated bone saw (crafted)|''<metal>'' serrated bone saw}} || Master || 11 - Very Difficult || Speed || Proficient Engineering Design || 8
|}

==Outfitting Tools==
{| border="1" class="wikitable sortable"
! Chapter !! Item !! Book !! Difficulty || Specialty[[#Notations|*]] || Technique || Volume
|-
| 4 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|hide scraper (crafted)|hide scraper}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 3
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|stout yardstick (crafted)|stout ''<metal>'' yardstick}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || || Basic Outfitting Design || 6
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|smooth knitting needles (crafted)|smooth knitting needles}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || || Basic Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|plain sewing needles (crafted)|plain sewing needles}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || || Basic Outfitting Design || 3
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|straight scissors (crafted)|straight ''<metal>'' scissors}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|curved hide scraper (crafted)|curved hide scraper}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 3
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|pointed awl (crafted)|pointed ''<metal>'' awl}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|flat yardstick (crafted)|flat ''<metal>'' yardstick}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || || Basic Outfitting Design || 6
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|tapered knitting needles (crafted)|tapered knitting needles}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || || Basic Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|curved scissors (crafted)|curved ''<metal>'' scissors}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|ribbed sewing needles (crafted)|ribbed sewing needles}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || || Basic Outfitting Design || 3
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|narrow awl (crafted)|narrow ''<metal>'' awl}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|squat knitting needles (crafted)|squat knitting needles}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || || Basic Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|knobby sewing needles (crafted)|knobby sewing needles}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || || Basic Outfitting Design || 3
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|rectangular yardstick (crafted)|rectangular yardstick}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Speed || Basic Outfitting Design || 6
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|bent scissors (crafted)|bent ''<metal>'' scissors}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|serrated hide scraper (crafted)|serrated hide scraper}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Speed || Proficient Outfitting Design || 3
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|compact awl (crafted)|compact ''<metal>'' awl}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Speed || Proficient Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|polished knitting needles (crafted)|polished ''<metal>'' knitting needles}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Speed || Basic Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|slender awl (crafted)|slender ''<metal>'' awl}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|detailed yardstick (crafted)|detailed yardstick}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || || Basic Outfitting Design || 6
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|serrated scissors (crafted)|serrated scissors}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || || Proficient Outfitting Design || 4
|-
| 4 || {{ilink|i|thin sewing needles (crafted)|thin sewing needles}} || Master || 11 - Very Difficult || || Basic Outfitting Design || 3
|}

==Alchemy Tools==
{| border="1" class="wikitable sortable"
! Chapter !! Item !! Book !! Difficulty || Specialty[[#Notations|*]] || Technique || Volume
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|small brazier (crafted)|small ''<metal>'' brazier}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || ?? || Container Forging || 10
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|tapered pestle (crafted)|tapered pestle}} || ?? || 05 - Basic || ?? || Proficient Alchemy Design || 1
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|flat mixing stick (crafted)|flat mixing stick}} || ?? || 05 - Basic || ?? || Basic Alchemy Design || 6
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|square wire sieve (crafted)|square wire sieve}} || ?? || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || ?? || Proficient Alchemy Design || 3
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|tapered mixing stick (crafted)|tapered mixing stick}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || ?? || Basic Alchemy Design || 6
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|flat pestle (crafted)|flat pestle}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || ?? || Proficient Alchemy Design || 1
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|brazier (crafted)|''<metal>'' brazier}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || ?? || Container Forging || 10
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|triangular wire sieve (crafted)|triangular wire sieve}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || Balanced || Proficient Alchemy Design || 3
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|round mixing stick (crafted)|round mixing stick}} || Journeyman || 08 - Complicated || ?? || Basic Alchemy Design || 6
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|round pestle (crafted)|round pestle}} || ?? || 09 - Intricate || ?? || Proficient Alchemy Design || 1
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|grooved pestle (crafted)|grooved pestle}} || ?? || 10 - Difficult || Speed || Proficient Alchemy Design || 1
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|oblong wire sieve (crafted)|oblong wire sieve}} || ?? || 10 - Difficult || Durability || Proficient Alchemy Design || 3
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|grooved mixing stick (crafted)|grooved mixing stick}} || ?? || 10 - Difficult || ?? || Basic Alchemy Design || 6
|-
| 5 || {{ilink|i|trapezoidal wire sieve (crafted)|trapezoidal wire sieve}} || Master || 12 - Extremely Difficult || ?? || Proficient Alchemy Design || 3
|-
|}

==Forged Items==
{| border="1" class="wikitable sortable"
! Chapter !! Item !! Book !! Difficulty || Technique || Volume || Notes
|-
| 6 || {{ilink|i|shallow cup (crafted)|shallow ''<metal>'' cup}} || Apprentice || 01 - Extremely Easy || Utility Forging || 1 ||
|-
| 6 || {{ilink|i|slender rod (crafted)|slender ''<metal>'' rod}} || Apprentice || 01 - Extremely Easy || Utility Forging || 1 ||
|-
| 6 || {{ilink|i|tall mug (crafted)|tall ''<metal>'' mug}} || Apprentice || 02 - Very Easy || Utility Forging || 1 ||
|-
| 6 || {{ilink|i|short mug (crafted)|short ''<metal>'' mug}} || Apprentice || 02 - Very Easy || Utility Forging || 1 ||
|-
| 6 || {{ilink|i|soft keyblank (crafted)|soft ''<metal>'' keyblank}} || Apprentice || 02 - Very Easy || Utility Forging || 2 || Can be made into lockpicks
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|w|horseshoe (crafted)|horseshoe}} || Apprentice || 02 - Very Easy || Utility Forging || 4 || Is a weapon
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|scratcher (crafted)|scratcher}} || Apprentice || 03 - Easy || Utility Forging || 3 || Various verbs
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|barbells (crafted)|barbells}} || Apprentice || 03 - Easy || Utility Forging || 80 ||
|-
| 6 || {{ilink|w|large horseshoe (crafted)|large ''<metal>'' horseshoe}} || Apprentice || 03 - Easy || Utility Forging || 12 || Is a weapon
|-
| 6 || {{ilink|i|small flask (crafted)|small ''<metal>'' flask}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Utility Forging || 5 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|ankle band (crafted)|ankle band}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Decorative Forging || 4 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|lockpick case (crafted)|lockpick case}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Container Forging || 12 || Holds 16 lockpicks
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|origami case (crafted)|origami case}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Container Forging || 12 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|bolt box (crafted)|bolt box}} || Apprentice || 04 - Simple || Container Forging || 10 || Thigh worn, 6x2x2, 200 stone capacity
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|talisman case (crafted)|talisman case}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Container Forging || 5 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|flask (crafted)|flask}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Utility Forging || 5 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|oil latern (crafted)|oil lantern}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Utility Forging || 6 || Can be filled with oil and used as light source
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|lockpick ring (crafted)|lockpick ring}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Utility Forging || 2 || Holds 25 lockpicks
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|herbal case (crafted)|herbal case}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Container Forging || 8 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|jewelry box (crafted)|jewelry box}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Container Forging || 4 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|flights box (crafted)|flights box}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Container Forging || 10 || Holds ? fletching flights only
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|razor (crafted)|razor}} || Journeyman || 05 - Basic || Utility Forging || 2 || Shaving razor
|-
| 6 || {{ilink|i|large flask (crafted)|large ''<metal>'' flask}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Utility Forging || 7 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|armband (crafted)|armband}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Decorative Forging || 4 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|instrument case (crafted)|instrument case}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Container Forging || 8 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|chest (crafted)|chest}} || Journeyman || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Container Forging || 12 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|backtube (crafted)|backtube}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || Decorative Forging || 10 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|starchart tube (crafted)|starchart tube}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || Container Forging || 8 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|clippers (crafted)|clippers}} || Journeyman || 07 - Challenging || Utility Forging || 2 || Beard clippers
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|crown (crafted)|crown}} || Master || 09 - Intricate || Decorative Forging || 10 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|mask (crafted)|mask}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || Decorative Forging || 5 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|torque (crafted)|torque}} || Master || 10 - Difficult || Decorative Forging || 5 ||
|-
| 6 || ''<metal>'' {{ilink|i|headdress (crafted)|headdress}} || Master || 12 - Extremely Difficult || Decorative Forging || 10 ||
|}

==Instructions==
{| border="1" class="wikitable sortable"
! Item !! Difficulty || Technique || Volume || Notes
|-
| {{ilink|i|basic stamp (crafted)|basic ''<metal>'' stamp}} || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Maker Mark Design || 5 || Requires technique to make
|-
| ''<metal>'' nut || 03 - Easy || Utility Forging || 1 || No longer available
|-
| ''<metal>'' bolt || 04 - Simple || Utility Forging || 1 || No longer available
|-
| ''<metal>'' gear || 01 - Extremely Easy || Utility Forging || 1 || No longer available
|-
| ''<metal>'' spangleflange || 06 - Somewhat Challenging || Utility Forging || 5 || No longer available
|-
| ''<metal>'' rackensprocket || 08 - Complicated || Utility Forging || 5 || No longer available
|-
| ''<metal>'' flarmencrank || 09 - Intricate || Utility Forging || 10 || No longer available
|-
| ''<metal>'' glarmencoupler || 11 - Very Difficult || Utility Forging || 12 || No longer available
|-
| {{ilink|i|triple-fluted shovel (crafted)|triple-fluted shovel}} || 10 - Difficult || Expert Tool Design || 6 || [[Skyward Crafting‎‎]]
|-
| {{ilink|i|blunt forging hammer (crafted)|''<metal>'' blunt forging hammer}} || 10 - Difficult || Expert Tool Design || 10 || [[Skyward Crafting‎‎]]
|-
| {{ilink|i|wedge tong (crafted)|wedge tong}} || 11 - Very Difficult || Master Tool Design || 8 || [[Skyward Crafting‎‎]]
|-
| {{ilink|i|pointed metal pliers (crafted)|pointed metal pliers}} || 10 - Difficult || Expert Tool Design || 4 || [[Skyward Crafting‎‎]]
|-
| {{ilink|i|forked mixing stick (crafted)|forked mixing stick}} || 11 - Very Difficult || Expert Tool Design || 5 || [[Skyward Crafting‎‎]]
|-
| {{ilink|i|diagonal-wire sieve (crafted)|diagonal-wire sieve}} || 12 - Extremely Difficult || Master Tool Design || 2 || [[Skyward Crafting‎‎]]
|}

There were several instructions for producting [[Mechanical Spider Parts]] for the [[Hollow Eve Festival 403]].

==Notations==
<nowiki>*</nowiki> = Based on template caps, which stat these tools seem to emphasize. See [[Talk:Blacksmithing Products#Tool Foci|Talk page]] for more details.

{{cat|Creation systems}}

Item:Mottled grey leather bullwhip fringed with sluagh claws

2017-11-26T15:06:09Z

RCANINE: Created page with "{{Item |noun=bullwhip |look=Crafted from some unidentifiable leather, the multi-bellied thong features tightly woven strands stretching several feet in length. A small wrist..."

{{Item
|noun=bullwhip
|look=Crafted from some unidentifiable leather, the multi-bellied thong features tightly woven strands stretching several feet in length. A small wrist loop dangles at the end of the smooth, dark reddish brown moabi handle, sporting a cluster of sluagh claws. The supremely flexible cracker tips the pliant fall, lengthening the plaited body another foot and a half.
|MTag=leather
|CTag=grey
|type=toy, verby
|wearloc=belt
|lsize=18
|wsize=1
|hsize=1
|sourcetype=-
|fname=No
}}
STUDY: You think you can wave the grey bullwhip at someone. You can also simply wave or tap it.

WAVE: You crack your grey bullwhip in the air, causing a loud pop!

Weapon:Malachite-hilted bastard sword adorned by an emerald wreath

2017-11-26T13:40:20Z

RCANINE:

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=sword
|look=The intricately carved gems create an inlaid circle. Crossing the polished hilt and gold of the cross guard, they form a finger grip for added balance in the user's hand.
|MTag=malachite,emerald,gold
|STag=wreath
|range=melee
|adraw=No
|type=HE
|puncture=low
|slice=great
|impact=poor
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=dismally
|balance=fairly
|suitedness=fairly
|type2=2HE
|puncture2=somewhat fair
|slice2=very severe
|impact2=somewhat fair
|fire2=no
|cold2=no
|electric2=no
|foi2=poorly
|balance2=decently
|suitedness2=decently
|construction=marginally vulnerable
|metal=yes
|weight=30
|appcost=1,250,000
|source=Forever Faithful (2)
|cost=902,000 Dokoras
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
|newapp=Yes
|wtype=bastard sword
|traderapp=no
}}

Felwood

2017-11-25T20:01:32Z

RCANINE: Corrected density

Though it is often mistaken for a common pine tree, the rare felwood tree has strikingly purple wood beneath its unassuming bark. Durable and resilient, felwood is popular for both decoration and more utilitarian crafts.

Premiered at the 2017 Sleeping Dragon Corn Maze [[:Category:Microtrans events|Microtransaction Event]]. This material must be provided for [[alterations]].[[provided for alterations::true| ]]

==Crafting==
{{CraftProp
|type=wood
|durability=80
|workability=70
|hardness=96
|stiffness=72
|physical=40
|capacity=30
|shortbow=96
|longbow=32
|composite=96
|density=12.5
|value=12187
|source=-
|rarity=special}}

==Items==
{{MSearch|Felwood}}
{{RefAl}}
{{Cat|Flora,Woods,Materials}}

Origami creature

2017-11-19T18:05:18Z

RCANINE: /* Empath Weapon Mastery Overtraining */

{{Critter
|Critter Name=''<color>'' Origami ''<creature>''
|MinCap=20
|MaxCap=55
|new=Yes
|Skinnable=no
|Has Coins=yes
|Has Gems=yes
|Has Boxes=no
|Evil=no
|Construct=yes
|Corporeal=yes
|Special=no
|BackStabbable=no
|Casts Spells=no
|Stealthy=no
|Defense=no
|Attack Range=Melee
|Province=Zoluren
|City=Dirge
|MapList=*{{rmap|13|Paper Mill (13)}}
|hasskin=No
|Skin Name=
|Skin Weight=
|haspart=No
|Part Name=
|Part Weight=
|hasbone=No
|Bone Name=
|Bone Weight=
|RequiredRanks=
|MaxVal=
|MaxArrangedVal=
|Manipulated=no
|mskill1=
|mskill2=
|mcap=
|hasorgan=No
|Organ Name=
|Organ Weight=
|InitCost=2
}}
__NOTOC__
==Description==
Once likely someone's art hobby, this origami ''<creature>'' is animated by an unknown, magical force. It looks surprisingly hostile, and its drawn-on eyes peer forward with what may be a superimposed intelligence. Although made from paper, the origami ''<creature>'' looks like it's been hardened by the magic, making it much stronger and more durable than if it were simple paper.

==In Depth==
Origami creatures are the first shock-free huntable creature for Empaths. New empaths that have future plans for combat should train their skills to about 15 on an introduction critter (e.g. rats or louts) BEFORE joining the Empath guild. Afterwards, they can hunt origami creatures without shock.

Instead of becoming cut and bruised, they become torn and crumpled. 

Defense soft cap around 55 Hard cap for armor is right at 70 - Weapons slow in the 30 to 40 range 
Stealth trains to 60+ 

Pretty much harmless to anything in armor. 
The ones outside the swarm area are now easier than the ones in the window. 

*Note: In order to use brawling maneuvers, Empaths (and only Empaths) must type BRAWL to turn off the deterrent. Typing BRAWL again will turn the brawling deterrent back on.

== Hunting Area ==
The paper mill appears to have distinct regions with their own spawn mechanics. The rooms closest to the entrance (Northern Trade Road) have the slowest spawn. Spawn rate appears to increase deeper into the mill, with the last two rooms through the window being the swarm rooms.

== Empath Weapon Mastery Overtraining ==
Because of the significant gap until the next huntable construct, and because of the difficulty of casting Absolution for new empaths, origami creatures are a great candidate for Weapon Mastery overtraining. This involves training as many weapons as possible in the hunting grounds, but leaving as soon as [[Melee Mastery]] and [[Missile Mastery]] are mind locked. Return to origami creatures only when the weapon mastery skills are reasonably drained.

As long weapons skills are below 30, a character will continue to learn weapon mastery skills even if the weapon mastery skills are beyond the skill cap for the creature. However, if all weapon skills are at the creature cap, then no more mastery can be milked from origami creatures. Thus the need to "conserve" learning and leave as soon as weapon mastery skills are mind locked.

An empath can continue to train origami for quite some time for mastery skills through this method, and bypass the lack of viable hunting options. The next target creature after origami for empaths would be [[Endrus serpent]]s near Leth Deriel. The serpents require about 70 defensive ranks to hunt safely, which means your weapon mastery skill will need to be a bit above that to hit them with your low weapon skills coming out of origami. Training earlier on [[faenrae reaver]]s is also possible, but difficult because [[wind hound]]s are not considered undead, and will cause empathic shock. At early ranks, without an avenger, the room quickly becomes unbalanced as the reavers are killed off and the hounds remain.

In the meantime, Empaths can train defenses and empathy (via manipulate) past origami creature cap on the following nearby creatures: [[grass eel]], [[beisswurm]], and [[blood wolf]].

There are several creatures BEFORE zombie kobolds and origami creatures that empaths with Absolution may hunt. See the [[Empath_hunting_ladder]] page for more information.

== Variations ==
Colors: Black, Grey, Green, Orange, Pink, Purple, Red, Silver, Striped or White 
Shapes: Bird, Cow, Dragon, Duck, Goblin, Grasshopper, Hat, Mouse, Sprite, or Yak

== Recall ==
Coming in many different colors and sizes, these strange creatures are simply folded origami projects that have been animated by an outside source. They are typically found in old shops, paper mills and occasionally gathering spots where completed projects are discarded. 

Once attributed to be creations of the mad toy merchant [[Hobglup]], this theory has since been discredited by his death. These are sometimes rumored to be fueled by anger at being abandoned by their maker, although more practical theories say that they are animated by a mage of some sort.

Category talk:Hunting ladders

2017-11-19T17:51:57Z

RCANINE: /* Switch to appraisal values? */

How accurate are the hunting ladders? Like, the hunting ladders SAY that you can learn from musk hogs up to 35, but my bow skill is only 30--yet I'm not learning bows from hogs anymore. And pale grey death squirrels stopped teaching me bows when my skill hit 28.

Is it possible that the numbers need to be updated? [[User:GEHAYI]] 12:00 a.m., 12 September 2017 (EDT)
:The number we use for maximum ranks is the hard cap of the highest skill that can be learned here. Generally, weapons cap before defenses. (So if a creature stops giving any weapon experience at 28 ranks but awards armor experience through 35 ranks, the value is 35.)

:The minimum rank is intended to be the defenses when you could reasonably expect to survive when hunting at level. This is admittedly subjective, as your survivability depends on stats, special abilities, gear, and other factors.

:The teaching ranges have been narrowed since 3.0 went live, so it is likely that many creatures need to be updated. This is a slow process for a number of reasons:
:*The wiki is only updated by a small percentage of players.
:*One of those players has to have a character who is in the sweet spot for testing that creature's rank ranges.
:*Less popular creatures (ones in remote locations, ones that can't be skinned or don't drop boxes, etc.) are less likely to be hunted enough for testing.

:In short, feel free to correct any data that is no longer accurate. (You can use the "edit with form" button to help with formatting.) --[[User:ISHARON|ISHARON]] ([[User talk:ISHARON|talk]]) 03:23, 14 September 2017 (CDT)

== Switch to appraisal values? ==

Rather than setting max = hard cap of highest skill and min = approximately safe defenses, would it make more sense to score creatures via their appraisal? This could be:

Offense: the range (or median value) at which the creature the creature trains weapons acceptably
Defense: the range (or median value) at which the creature trains defensive skills acceptably

Monster level would be the average of the two values.

This has the benefit of being concrete numbers, which will not vary by guild. This will make monsters far easier to maintain, and make it more likely random players will keep monsters up to date.

[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 11:51, 19 November 2017 (CST)

Category talk:Hunting ladders

2017-11-19T17:51:37Z

RCANINE: Added suggestion for changing monsters to use appraisal values

Spiny dyrachis

2017-11-16T16:23:21Z

RCANINE: Added note about them being passive.

{{Critter
|Critter Name=Spiny Dyrachis
|Image File=Spinydyrac.jpg
|MinCap=140
|MaxCap=200
|BodyType=Quadruped
|new=No
|level=30
|Skinnable=no
|Has Coins=no
|Has Gems=no
|Has Boxes=no
|Evil=no
|Construct=no
|Corporeal=yes
|Special=yes
|BackStabbable=no
|Casts Spells=no
|Stealthy=no
|Attack Range=Ranged
|Province=Therengia
|City=Riverhaven
|MapList=*{{rmap|31| Northeast Wilds and Zaulfung (31)}}
|hasskin=No
|haspart=No
|hasbone=No
|Poachable=Yes
}}
__NOTOC__

==Description==
The dyrachis is a six-legged burrowing beast about the size of a yak. When it feels threatened, it can inflate air sacs beneath its skin to display its long sharp quills glistening with poison -- and then use that air to fire the quills with great force.

==={{ilink|i|dyrachis anatomy chart|Anatomy Chart}}===
The spiny dyrachis is a six-legged beast about the size of a yak. The creature's feet are wide, each of its three toes splayed, and it stands on the page in a stubborn, immovable posture. The dyrachis' head resembles a cross between a bull and a sheep, though its mien is mulish and cantankerous. The author notes that when it feels threatened, the dyrachis can inflate air sacs beneath its skin to raise its long, sharp, poisoned quills -- and then use that air to fire the quills at its foes with great force.

==In Depth==
Dyrachis are large, porcupine-like animals. Rarely hunted, they are prized for their quills, which make fantastic ammunition for [[Telekinetic Throw]]. Dyrachis do not engage, and remain passively at range. If one Dyrachis is threatened (or simply FACEd), all Dyrachis in the room will fire quills at the attacker. You can safely hunt Sluagh's amongst the Dyrachis as long as you do not pester them.

===Equipment/Loot===
It is wearing nothing! 
It is carrying nothing!

Produces {{sloot|w|dyrachis quill}}s.

===Special Attacks===
A spiny dyrachis bristles menacingly, puffing itself up to enormous size.

A spiny dyrachis grunts, sending a sharp quill hurtling through the air at you! 
The dyrachis quill whistles through the air, completely missing you!

On death (If inflated)
A spiny dyrachis bursts in a messy explosion of blood, poisoned quills, and gobbets of flesh!

Talk:Boobrie

2017-11-16T11:52:12Z

RCANINE:

You are certain that the grey boobrie is healthy. 
You are certain that the grey boobrie is slightly fatigued. 
You are certain that it is somewhat weaker (20) than you are. 
You are certain that it is quite a bit less agile (30) than you are. 
You are certain that it is definitely less disciplined (20) than you are. 
You are certain that it is quite a bit less quick to react (30) than you are. 
You are certain that it is definitely less conditioned (20) than you are. 
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a storm-bull targe sealed with protective wax and a pattern-welded haralun katar with a wire-wrapped cork grip, you are certain that the grey boobrie is a simple opponent. 
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a pattern-welded haralun katar with a wire-wrapped cork grip, you are certain that the grey boobrie is a creature completely beneath your notice. 
If you attacked with a pattern-welded haralun katar with a wire-wrapped cork grip (128), you are certain that the enemy would train quite badly. 
If you threw the katar at the enemy (2), you are certain that it would train quite badly. 
If you defended by parrying attacks (132), you are certain that the enemy would train quite badly. 
If you defended by evading attacks (145), you are certain that the enemy would train quite badly. 
If you defended by blocking attacks (77), you are certain that the enemy would train quite badly. 
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics (105), you are certain that it would train quite badly. 
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy (12), you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many abilities.--[[User:ERENIOS3|ERENIOS3]] ([[User talk:ERENIOS3|talk]]) 18:56, 12 August 2015 (CDT)

With 32 rank in brawling, defensively boobies seemed indistinguishable from the boars around them, but they did hit slightly more often. Their caps might be a little high.
[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 05:51, 16 November 2017 (CST)

Talk:Boobrie

2017-11-16T11:51:45Z

RCANINE:

You are certain that the grey boobrie is healthy. 
You are certain that the grey boobrie is slightly fatigued. 
You are certain that it is somewhat weaker (20) than you are. 
You are certain that it is quite a bit less agile (30) than you are. 
You are certain that it is definitely less disciplined (20) than you are. 
You are certain that it is quite a bit less quick to react (30) than you are. 
You are certain that it is definitely less conditioned (20) than you are. 
Taking stock of its offensive abilities, and defending with a storm-bull targe sealed with protective wax and a pattern-welded haralun katar with a wire-wrapped cork grip, you are certain that the grey boobrie is a simple opponent. 
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a pattern-welded haralun katar with a wire-wrapped cork grip, you are certain that the grey boobrie is a creature completely beneath your notice. 
If you attacked with a pattern-welded haralun katar with a wire-wrapped cork grip (128), you are certain that the enemy would train quite badly. 
If you threw the katar at the enemy (2), you are certain that it would train quite badly. 
If you defended by parrying attacks (132), you are certain that the enemy would train quite badly. 
If you defended by evading attacks (145), you are certain that the enemy would train quite badly. 
If you defended by blocking attacks (77), you are certain that the enemy would train quite badly. 
If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics (105), you are certain that it would train quite badly. 
If you attempted to debilitate the enemy (12), you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many abilities.--[[User:ERENIOS3|ERENIOS3]] ([[User talk:ERENIOS3|talk]]) 18:56, 12 August 2015 (CDT)

With 32 rank in brawling, I boobies seemed indistinguishable from the boars around them, but they did hit slightly more often. Their caps might be a little high.
[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 05:51, 16 November 2017 (CST)

Shaping guide

2017-11-16T05:18:02Z

RCANINE: /* Arrowhead making */ Added note about metal arrowheads

{{wikify}}
{{RTOC}}

Shaping is one of the disciplines in the [[Engineering craft]] that consists of two basic parts. The first is gathering wood and refining the wood into lumber, also known as [[lumberjacking]]. See the page on [[Lumberjacking]] for more information on tools, dangers, wood types and locations, and turning raw wood into lumber. Once you have the lumber you can make things from it. In addition clay items will be possible at some future point in time.

Shaping products from Chapter 8 of the Shaping book requires a second book called a [[Design_codex|Design codex]]; which is used for products with additional fine design details such as detailed prayer beads.

===Basic Tools Needed to Complete Your First Work Order===

The beginning Engineer's first shaping product will most likely be a Toy Bow. Here are the basic tools you will need:

:1. shaping Instruction Book - for knowing what you're making. 
:2. [[Item:Engineering logbook|Engineering logbook]] - for if you want to make money doing work orders. 
:3. [[Scissors|scissors]] (available at Outfitting Societies) - for marking and cutting your lumber stacks to size. 
:4. [[Drawknife|drawknife]] - for creating the basic shape from your lumber. 
:5. [[Carving knife|carving knife]] - for carving fine detail. 
:6. [[Item:Wood shaper|wood shaper]] - for further shaping your product. 
:7. [[Rasp|rasp]] - for smoothing out rough spots. 
:8. clamps - for holding your pieces together. 
:9. bow string - for assembling with your lumber. 
:10. [[item:Wood stain|stain]] - for finishing your product. 
:11. lumber - Balsa lumber is easy to work with and is sold in the Engineering Society in stacks of 10. 

For your first product you will not need wood glue, sandpaper, the codex, leather strips, or backer material.

===Basic Steps Needed to Complete Your First Work Order===

:1. You need to study your shaping book: {{com|STUDY}} {{tt|BOOK}} for the product you want to make before you cut your lumber. You may need to re-study the book if you find yourself forgetting the instructions. 
:2. With your stack of lumber in one hand, and your scissors in the other, {{com|MARK}} {{tt|MY}} {{tt|LUMBER}} {{tt|AT}} # where # is the number of pieces you need for your product. 
:3. {{com|CUT}} {{tt|LUMBER}} {{tt|WITH}} {{tt|MY}} {{tt|SCISSORS}}. You're not actually cutting the wood, but you're cutting the twine used to mark your pieces. The lumber you need to use will be at your feet. Stow the scissors and the lumber you have in-hand, and pick up the lumber you will use. 
:4. Using the drawknife, {{com|SCRAPE}} {{tt|LUMBER}} {{tt|WITH}} {{tt|MY}} {{tt|DRAWKNIFE}} to get it to its basic shape. The lumber in your hand will turn into your product name (in this case 'toy bow'). 
:5. Now you have to pay attention to the messaging, which is pretty clear on what you need to do. You will switch between your carving knife, your rasp, and your wood shaper for much of the product. 
::a. {{com|CARVE}} {{tt|<product>}} {{tt|WITH}} {{tt|MY}} {{tt|KNIFE}}: to bring out the details, (or) 
::b. {{com|SHAPE}} {{tt|<product>}} {{tt|WITH}} {{tt|MY}} {{tt|SHAPER}}: to give it more form. {or) 
::c. {{com|RUB}} {{tt|<product>}} {{tt|WITH}} {{tt|MY}} {{tt|RASP}}: to smooth out the rough parts. 
:6. Eventually you will get the message about clamps. {{com|PUSH}} {{tt|<product>}} {{tt|WITH}} {{tt|MY}} {{tt|CLAMPS}}. 
:7. Sometimes you will get mixed messages, telling you to apply the stain and assemble the pieces at the same time. Stain is always last to finish the product, so get out your bowstring (or whatever piece is required for what you're making) and {{com|ASSEMBLE}} {{tt|STRING}} {{tt|WITH}} {{tt|<product>}}. 
:8. Finally, you'll see that it's time to apply stain and finish your product. {{com|POUR}} {{tt|STAIN}} {{tt|ON}} {{tt|<product>}}. 
:9. If you're doing this for a work order, {{com|BUNDLE}} {{tt|<product>}} {{tt|WITH}} {{tt|MY}} (Engineering) {{tt|LOGBOOK}} to get it ready to turn in for money.

:That's it! You're done!

===Lumber Use===

Each of the lumber types can be used for multiple items you can make but some are better at specific items.
See [[:Category:Woods|Woods]] for a chart of the wood types and their material properties. It can help to keep it open in another browser tab to quickly reference.

==Fletching==

Fletching arrows involves making arrowheads from critter parts at present and making shafts and then combining them with flights to create an arrow. At some future point we will be able to possibly use bone, metal, and stone to make arrowheads, which will expand the types of arrows we can make. This area of the guild will explain the only tools needed to make the items for the arrows and the final product.

Tools to use for Arrow making

The tools for making arrows are basically most all of the tools required for shaping. Those are as follows:

: Tool 1 – Shaper
: Tool 2 – Carving Knife
: Tool 3 – Glue
: Tool 4 – Feather flights only from the shaping society.
: Tool 5 – A part from some critter to make an arrowhead.
::*{{com|Skin}} {{tt|Creature}} {{tt|For}} {{tt|Part}}

These creatures yield these arrowhead material parts: [[Cougar|cougar]] claws, [[Wild boar|boar]] tusks, [[Sabre-toothed warcat|sabre-toothed warcat]] sabre teeth, [[Marbled angiswaerd|marbled angiswaerd]] teeth, [[Sleek hele'la|hele'la]] claws, [[Sinuous elsralael|elsrael]] teeth, [[Young firecat|young firecats']] soot-stained claws, [[Sinuous ice adder|sinuous ice adder]] teeth, [[Storm bull|storm bulls']] jagged horns, and [[Lava drake|lava drake]] fangs.

===Shaft making===

Ok shaft making is really simple. You'll need ~50 ranks of engineering. You get some lumber It does not appear to matter what you get wood wise as long as you can make it masterful. Masterful shafts all appear to work the same no matter what wood its made from. So first you get some lumber. If you use 2 pieces of your lumber you can make 2 sets of shafts that will make 5 arrows each. That would be 10 arrows you can make from 2 pieces of your lumber. So if you have a stack of lumber and only want to turn 2 pieces into shafts you do the following:

:Step 1 – {{com|mark}} {{tt|my}} {{tt|lumber}} at 2 (pieces)
:Step 2 – {{com|Get}} {{tt|My}} {{tt|scissors}} and {{com|cut}} {{tt|lumber}} {{tt|with}} {{tt|my}} {{tt|scissors}}. (you're cutting the binding holding the lumber together)

That should give you in hand 2 pieces of lumber with the rest at your feet or on the ground where it may have been when you started. Now with the 2 pieces of lumber either in hand or on the ground. Here are the manual steps to make the shafts.

:Step 1 – {{com|Get}} {{tt|my}} {{tt|shaper}} from your container.
:Step 2 – {{com|Shape}} {{tt|lumber}} into {{tt|shaft}} (syntax is shared between arrow and bolt shafts)
:Step 3 – {{com|Put}} {{tt|my}} {{tt|shaper}} in your container.

Now you have your shafts.

That's it you now have shafts in hand. Count shafts, analyze shafts, appraise shafts careful, hug your shafts, kiss your shafts, just don't get shafted. Your done making shafts for now. Note in my work with shafts I find they all combine and it does not matter what wood you use. So bottom line here is use the wood you can make the shafts at masterfully done. The type of wood does not matter to the final product only the fact that its masterful.

===Arrowhead making===

Arrowhead making is pretty simple just like making the shafts. You'll need ~50 engineering ranks to shape arrowheads, for any part type. You must have some skinned critter parts though. Early on that means boar tusk or cougar claws. Each tusk or claw will make 5 arrowheads. So if you want to make 20 arrows all you need is 4 of them. As an example lets say you have 4 boar tusks. Put them in your container. So to manually turn 4 boar tusks into arrowheads you do the following steps:

:Step 1 – {{com|Get}} {{tt|tool}} to shape the arrowhead. The tool can be a hammer, knife, shaper, weapons of various types, etc.
:Step 2 – {{com|Get}} {{tt|boar tusk}} (or other arrowhead material) from your container.
:Step 3 – {{com|Shape}} {{tt|<part>}} {{tt|into}} {{tt|arrowhead}}. The word arrowhead must be typed completely. The parser does not accept any abbreviated forms.
:Step 4 – {{com|Put}} {{tt|arrowhead}} in container
:Step 5 – Go back to step 2 and continue till done.

'''Note:''' although the shaping instructions books claim you can make metal arrowheads with ingots and nuggets, this is not actually implemented.

===Arrow making===

Arrow making can get fairly complicated. But its also fairly easy if you follow a few simple rules. Once you shape the shafts proceed to the shaping part and stay there till you get a message to do something else. Make sure your shaping book is turned to the right page for the right arrows your going to make. At this point I need to mention the difficulty of making arrows. The first two arrows that can be created are Cougar-claw and boar-tusk arrows. These are considered simple difficulty and that means with no techs, no career and no hobby you need 200 skill in engineering to work them masterfully. With techs and a career or hobby and good tools you can probably bring that down into the 140 range but arrows are up there in difficulty. The steps to make arrows look as follows:

After Step 2 you always get this message - arrowheads to continue crafting some unfinished – which means you now have to assemble the arrowheads to the shafts, which is step 3.

Step 1 - get your shaping book
:{{com|study}} {{tt|my shaping book}}
Step 2 - put shaping book away
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my wood shaper}}
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my shafts}}
:{{com|shape}} {{tt|my shafts with my shaper}} (this will use 1 set of shafts and put the rest of them at your feet slot)
Step 3 -
:{{com|Get}} {{tt|my arrowheads}}
:{{com|assemble}} {{tt|my arrowheads with my arrows}}
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my glue}}
:{{com|apply}} {{tt|my glue to my arrows}}

At this point you will go to step 5, unless you got the message to use the carving knife of step 4. This message is the only one you get to carve something - A handful of rough edges require carving with a knife to remove. - Any other message you just keep using step 5 with. You will repeatedly do step 5 unless step 4 is needed till you are asked to assemble the flights in step 6. This is done when you see the message - You need another arrow flights to continue crafting some unfinished – which directs you to step 6. At that point you will do steps 6, 7 and 8 in order. If you have a stamp to stamp the arrows, you will not do step 8, but will do step 9. You will know you have performed the last step when you see the message - Applying the final touches, you complete working on some – which is the end point in making your arrows.

Step 4 -
:put tool away
:{{com|get}} {{tt|carving knife}}
:{{com|carve}} {{tt|my arrows with my knife}}
Step 5 -
:put tool away
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my wood shaper}}
:{{com|shape}} {{tt|my arrows with my wood shaper}}
Step 6 -
:put tool away
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my flights}}
:{{com|assemble}} {{tt|my flights with my arrows}}
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my glue}}
:{{com|apply}} {{tt|my glue to my arrows}}
Step 7 -
:put glue away
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my carving knife}}
:{{com|carve}} {{tt|my arrows with my carving knife}}
Step 8 - If you are not stamping your work: Arrow making is done. 
Step 9 - If you are stamping your work:
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my stamp}}
:{{com|mark}} {{tt|my arrows with my stamp}} (this can only be done for a short period of time after item completion)

This will complete your first set of 5 arrows.

==Shaping Bows, Weapons, and Items==

This document goes through how to shape items in the shaping craft. At present this can be used to shape all items currently in chapters 1 (short pole), chapter 2 (shortbows), chapter 3 (longbows), chapter 4 (composite bows), chapter 7 (items), chapter 9 (staff weapons), and chapter 10 (tables). Chapter 8 requires a codex to be able do the items in chapter 8 (beads, totems, figurines, statuette, statue). This will allow clerics to make prayer beads with lumber at a higher quality bead and takes (beads are extremely easy to very easy which means it takes between 25 and 50 skill in engineering to make the beads) much lower skill and no techs if they lumberjack their own lumber. Other wise you will need the shaper specialization technique to handle the lower quality lumber. Some of the other items in chapter 8 might be for enchanting.

Now you have 3 ways to get lumber to do these tasks. You can lumberjack to get it and refine it (high quality lumber), or you can simply forage stick/branch/limb (which is now random on what is obtained) and when you get enough of the type you want process it (low quality lumber), and last you can buy it in the engineering society as already processed lumber (medium quality lumber). I would only use the low quality lumber if your not doing work orders and just making things to learn engineering skill. Work orders can be either the high quality or medium quality lumber though you will get better pay for the work order using the high quality lumber. For items you want to make for yourself or for others use only the high quality lumber.

You will need tools and materials to perform these tasks. These are covered in the rest of this document.

===Tools and materials needed===

The materials needed for the items in the shaping book can vary but they include bow string, backer, short cord, leather strips, long pole, short pole, and lumber. The lumber can be obtained in 3 ways and the short pole can be made. All the rest of the items must be purchased in the Engineering Society building.

The tools required for shaping are as follows:

:Tool 1 – Shaping book (apprentice, journeyman, master)
:Tool 2 - [[Design codex]] (6250 kronars in engineering society)
:Tool 3 – Clamps (can only be bought at this point)
:Tool 4 – Wood shaper
:Tool 5 – Carving knife
:Tool 6 – Rasp
:Tool 7 – Glue (can only be bought at this point)
:Tool 8 – Wood Stain (can only be bought at this point)
:Tool 9 – A [[Maker mark|maker's mark]] if you qualify for and own one

Right now only the shaper, carving knife, rasp, and maker's mark can be crafted. It would be a good idea to get a set of these crafted tools even if they are not top of the line. A good set of high or medium carbon steel tools works really well to improve the quality of your output item.

Everything in the apprentice book is in the journeyman and masters books and everything in the journeyman book is in the masters book. So basically it just comes down to what you can afford. The apprentice book is under a gold, and the journeyman is 15 plat and the masters book is 62.5 plat kronars. The apprentice book will teach to around 200 skill if you have no techniques, but get enough techniques and that could drop to around 150 skill. I think the journeyman books will teach to around 425 at the very least and probably higher.

Follow the steps above in the section on shaping your first product up to step 7. Then:

Step 8 -
:{{com|Assemble}} {{tt|my backing with my <bowtype>}}
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my glue}}
:{{com|apply}} {{tt|my glue to my <bowtype>}}
Step 9 -
:{{com|Assemble}} {{tt|my strips with my <item>}}
:{{com|analyze}} {{tt|<item>}} – This tells you what is needed next
Step 10 -
:{{com|Assemble}} {{tt|my short cord with my <item>}}
:{{com|analyze}} {{tt|<item>}} – This tells you what is needed next
Step 11 -
:{{com|Assemble}} {{tt|my pole with my <item>}} (does 4 poles for tables)
:All tables but one require long poles, one uses short poles
:{{com|analyze}} {{tt|<item>}} – This tells you the next step.
Step 12 -
:put up last tool
:end script with completed item.
Step 13 -
:put up last tool
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my stamp}}
:{{com|mark}} {{tt|my item with my stamp}}

The possible messages produced during this process are as follows:

:Shaping with a wood shaper is needed to
:Shaping with a wood shaper should even out the
:ready for shaping with a wood shaper
:ready for continued shaping with a wood shaper
:A bulbous knot will make continued shaping difficult unless rubbed out with a rasp.
:A cluster of small knots deforms the wood's structure
:is ready to have more fine detail carved with a carving knife.
:grain looks solid and ready for continued knife carving.
:appears free of defects that would impede further carving with a knife.
:You do not see anything that would prevent further carving with a knife.
:The bow now must be pushed with clamps or a
:The bow's pieces and backing material are now ready to be clamped together.
:You need another finished bow string to continue crafting
:You need another bone, wood or horn backing material to continue
:You need another finished leather strips to continue crafting
:You need another finished short leather cord to continue crafting
:You need another finished * wooden pole to continue crafting
:Applying the final touches, you complete working on

At this point you have completed your product or should have. You can now bundle the item with your logbook and proceed to the next item if you are doing a work order. These are the basic manual steps you can use to finish your item. Remember if you get stuck you can always analyze item and should get information such as the following:

:>analyze my shortbow:
:You analyze every aspect of the Nisha shortbow and nod as your understanding grows.
:When crafting is complete this will be a type of finished shortbow.
:With all major carving work completed, '''the wood is ready for the application of stain'''.
:From the progress so far, it looks like the shortbow is masterfully-crafted.
:The shortbow is a somewhat challenging piece to make.
:You estimate that it is very nearly done.
:Roundtime: 9 sec.

Notice the fourth line in the above information. It tells you the next step you need to take in order to complete this shortbow. So if you get stuck {{com|analyze}} the item and do what it indicates.

==Bow Enhancements==

This document discusses the process of performing enhancements to bows through lamination or increase/decrease the draw weight of a given bow. At this point I have found that you must have some pretty good quality lumber to be able to do this. If you were to use society bought wood like maple for a shortbow and try to laminate or increase the draw strength of the bow you would fail (with no techs, 530 skill, good quality tools). I found to be able to actually do this I had to have lumber that was much higher quality than that found in the society buildings and you only get that if you lumberjack it yourself or get it from someone who did.

===Parts and tools required===

To do bow enhancements you need some parts you buy in the society building, such as backer for lamination, and leather strips for cable-backing. Lightening the draw strength usually just involves shaping of the bow to take more material off of the bow.

For the tools you need the following:

:Tool 1 – Shaping book. (apprentice or journeyman or masters)
:Tool 2 – Clamps (can only be bought at this point)
:Tool 3 – Shaper
:Tool 4 – Carving knife
:Tool 5 – Rasp
:Tool 6 – Glue (can only be bought at this point)
:Tool 7 – Wood Stain (can only be bought at this point)
:Tool 8 – A [[Maker mark|maker's mark]] if you qualify for and own one

Right now only the shaper, carving knife, rasp, and maker's mark can be crafted. It would be a good idea to get a set of crafted tools even if they are not top of the line. A good set of high or medium carbon steel tools works really well to improve the quality of your output item.

Everything in the apprentice book is in the journeyman and masters books and everything in the journeyman book is in the masters book. So basically it just comes down to what you can afford. The apprentice book is under a gold, and the journeyman is 15 plat and the masters book is 62.5 plat kronars. The apprentice book will teach to around 200 skill if you have no techniques, but get enough techniques and that could drop to around 150 skill. I think the journeyman books will teach to around 425 at the very least and probably higher.

===Manual steps to enhance a bow===

When you enhance a bow by lamination or cable-backing you also add some weight to the bow. When you lighten a bow you remove material from the bow and it gets a bit lighter. So you basically laminate a bow to increase its durability. You will find if you used a wood that has poor durability it almost appears like there is very little enhancement made to the bow. There are differences but its really subtle. Keep that in mind when you enhance bows.

The basic steps to doing bow enhancement by hand requires you to have the bow in the left hand, tools and ingredients in your container, the Shaping book must be turned to the right page. The first step is to get the shaping book and study it, Then put it up and get your clamps and clamp the bow. Clamping the bow will generate a message that tells you the next step to take and it will be either step 3 or step 4 or step 5. At that point you will cycle between steps 3, 4, or 5 until you need to clamp the bow one more time. For lamination the end process would be using step 6, then step 7, then step 8, then steps 9 and 11. For Cable-backing the end process would be using step 6, then step 7, then step 10, then steps 9 and 11. To lighten the bow you would simply keep using steps 3, 4 or 5 till you use step 6 and then do steps 9 and 11.

Step 1 -
:{{com|study}} {{tt|my shaping book}}
Step 2 -
:put shaping book away
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my clamps}}
:{{com|push}} {{tt|my bow with my clamps}}
Step 3 -
:Use wood shaper when needed.
:{{com|Shape}} {{tt|my item with my wood shaper}}
Step 4 -
:Use rasp when the messaging results in: A bulbous knot is present.
:{{com|Rub}} {{tt|my <item> with my rasp}}
Step 5 -
:Use carving knife if fine detail is needed.
:{{com|Carve}} {{tt|my <item> with my carving knife}}
Step 6 -
:Use clamps when needed.
:{{com|push}} {{tt|my <item> with my clamps}}
Step 7 -
:{{com|apply}} {{tt|my glue to my <item>}}
Step 8 –
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my backing}}
:{{com|Assemble}} {{tt|my backing}}
:{{com|analyze}} {{tt|my <item>}}
Step 9 -
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my stain}}
:{{com|apply}} {{tt|my stain to my <item>}}
Step 10-
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my strips}}
:{{com|assemble}} {{tt|my strips with my <item>}}
:{{com|analyze}} {{tt|my <item>}}
Step 11-
:{{com|get}} {{tt|my stamp}}
:{{com|mark}} {{tt|my <item> with my stamp}}

The possible messages during the process are as follows:

:Shaping with a wood shaper is needed to
:A bulbous knot will make continued shaping difficult unless rubbed out with a rasp.
:The wood is ready to have more fine detail carved with a carving knife.
:appears free of defects that would impede further carving with a knife.
:grain looks solid and ready for continued knife carving.
:materials are ready to be compressed with clamps or
:Glue should now be applied so assembly can begin.
:appears ready to be reinforced with some backer material.
:Some wood stain should be applied to the wood to finish it.
:appears ready to be strengthened with some leather strips.
:is ready to be assembled with leather strips
:construction shows improved signs of durability and wear resistance
:weight and draw strength appears significantly
:Close inspection of the completed
:You study the instructions about bow cable-backing
:You study the instructions about bow lamination
:You study the instructions about bow lightening

Note the variation in the messages comes mostly from the Steps 8 and 10. Where you assemble the backer or the strips and then analyze the bowtype. Its entirely possible not all the messages that are possible have been seen yet. In that case you may need to add a few more to this set.

==Making Beads and totems from Chapter 8==

Beads, totems, figurines, statuette and statues can be made from chapter 8. However, this chapter requires you have a codex. What you do is set yourself to the item in the shaping book you want to create. Then you turn to the chapter and page in the codex for the type of item you want to shape. After study of both books starting with the shaping book, you proceed just like you were making a normal item, bow, or staff weapon. The steps are included in the MANUAL STEPS TO SHAPE section.

==Repair of wood based items==

To repair any item you make with a bow requires two things. Sandpaper and stain. Having the repair techs helps a great deal as well. The steps to repair wood based items are as follows:

Step 1 – {{com|Rub}} {{tt|my item with my sandpaper}} (The {{com|Clean}} and {{com|Scrape}} commands may be substituted for {{tt|RUB}}). 
Step 2 – {{com|apply}} {{tt|my stain to my item}}

{{Cat|Player guides,Crafting player guides}}

Weapon:Longbow (crafted)

2017-11-15T07:24:13Z

RCANINE: Add dimensions

==Variations==
{{WeaponKey}}
{{RTOC}}
{{CraftTemplate|itype=longbow|range=ranged|type=weapon|style=lob|mat=wood|dif=6|vol=7|tech=Longbow Shaping |18|1|1|book=Journeyman|const=}}

==Standard==
{{CraftHead|sb}}
{{CraftW|t=lbs|maple|85|20|4|false|10|8|10|1|4|34|m=}}
|}

==Common==
{{CraftHead|sb}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|ash|70|40|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lbs|moabi|80|55|||||||||m=}}
|}

==Uncommon==
{{CraftHead|sb}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|elm|80|30|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|walnut|70|70|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|willow|60|15|||||||||m=}}
|}

==Rare==
{{CraftHead|sb}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|cherry|65|70|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|osage|85|80|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|rosewood|85|70|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|yew|85|70|||||||||m=}}
|}

==Very Rare==
{{CraftHead|sb}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|azurelle|95|65|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|bloodwood|95|70|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|copperwood|95|55|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|goldwood|95|55|||||||||m=}}
{{CraftW|t=lb|mistwood|95|60|||||||||m=}}
|}

Weapon:Double-laminated mistwood longbow with an exquisitely carved riser (2)

2017-11-15T06:38:00Z

RCANINE:

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=longbow
|look=The dark wood bears an intrinsic pattern of silver and green veins while the riser has been masterfully whittled into the visage of a heron's head. With meticulous attention to detail, down to the tiny feathers of the neck which makes up the grip of the bow, the fowl's head has been fashioned flatter, serving as the arrow rest.
|MTag=mistwood, wood,
|CTag=silver, Green,
|STag=heron's head, heron, head, feather,
|range=ranged
|ammo=arrow
|ammocap=1
|drawstrength=very low
|adraw=No
|type=LoB
|puncture=-
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=reasonably
|balance=well
|suitedness=well
|construction=rather reinforced
|metal=no
|weight=35
|wearloc=shoulder
|lsize=18
|wsize=2
|hsize=1
|sourcetype=-
|fname=No
}}

Item:Hide quiver strung with beaded crow feathers

2017-11-15T06:11:15Z

RCANINE:

{{Item
|noun=quiver
|look=-
|MTag=Hide
|ATag=Crow
|type=container
|wearloc=upper arm
|appcost=5000
|lsize=7
|wsize=1
|hsize=1
|ilsize=7
|iwsize=1
|ihsize=1
|csize=60
|sourcetype=-
|fname=No
}}

Item:Hide quiver strung with beaded crow feathers

2017-11-15T06:09:55Z

RCANINE: Created page with "{{Item |noun=quiver |look=- |MTag=Hide |ATag=Crow |type=container |wearloc=upper arm |ilsize=7 |iwsize=1 |ihsize=1 |csize=60 |sourcetype=- |fname=No }}"

{{Item
|noun=quiver
|look=-
|MTag=Hide
|ATag=Crow
|type=container
|wearloc=upper arm
|ilsize=7
|iwsize=1
|ihsize=1
|csize=60
|sourcetype=-
|fname=No
}}

Item:Large square atlas elaborately engraved with the word "Elanthia"

2017-11-14T17:07:45Z

RCANINE: Created page with "{{Item |noun=atlas |look=Pictures of creatures native to various regions are drawn on a map of Elanthia. |type=anatomy chart, verby |appcost=2,660,750 |lsize=1 |wsize=1 |hsize..."

{{Item
|noun=atlas
|look=Pictures of creatures native to various regions are drawn on a map of Elanthia.
|type=anatomy chart, verby
|appcost=2,660,750
|lsize=1
|wsize=1
|hsize=1
|sourcetype=-
|rare=yes
|fname=No
}}
'''STUDY (when closed):''' You think that you could OPEN, CLOSE, TURN, STUDY, and READ the atlas.
You also think you could TURN the atlas to a particular chapter.
The table of contents reads: "Elothean, Halfling, Elven, Gor'Tog, S'Kra Mur, Kaldar, Gnome, Prydaen, Equine, Dwarven, Human, Rakash, Silver Leucro, Snow Goblin, Rock Troll, Rat, Heggarangi Frog, Croff Pothanit, Scavenger Goblin, Brocket Deer, Wild Boar, Grass Eel, Striped Badger, Blood Dryad, Blood Nyad, Glutinous Lipopod, Trollkin, Kelpie, Cougar, Boggle, Thunder Ram, Boobrie, Malodorous Bucca, Copperhead Viper, Young Ogre, Dusk Ogre, Sun Vulture, Bison, Fire Maiden, Moss Mey"

'''STUDY (when open):''' Trains First Aid

Weapon:Heavy steel falchion with a screaming phoenix head pommel

2017-11-13T16:36:45Z

RCANINE:

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=falchion
|look=-
|MTag=steel,
|STag=Phoenix,
|adraw=No
|type=HE
|puncture=dismal
|slice=great
|impact=very heavy
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=inadequately
|balance=terribly
|suitedness=extremely well
|construction=rather reinforced
|metal=yes
|appcost=35700
|sourcetype=-
|fname=No
}}

Weapon:Onyx-hilted scimitar

2017-11-13T16:16:21Z

RCANINE:

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=scimitar
|look=A broken dagger has been etched into the onyx hilt.
|MTag=onyx
|STag=dagger
|range=melee
|adraw=No
|type=ME
|puncture=poor
|slice=moderate
|impact=low
|foi=dismally
|balance=fairly
|suitedness=decently
|construction=marginally vulnerable
|metal=yes
|weight=31
|lsize=9
|wsize=1
|hsize=1
|appcost=262
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
}}

Weapon:Onyx-hilted scimitar

2017-11-13T16:15:57Z

RCANINE:

Weapon:Onyx-hilted scimitar

2017-11-13T16:15:36Z

RCANINE:

Shield:Bloodstained leather shield edged with iron spikes

2017-11-12T19:15:24Z

RCANINE:

{{Shield
|rev=1
|newshieldapp=Yes
|noun=shield
|look=-
|MTag=leather, iron,blood
|STag=blood,bloodstain,spike
|type=ssh
|hindrance=minor
|minprotection=dismal
|maxprotection=fair
|puncture=fair
|slice=no
|impact=moderate
|balance=decently
|suitedness=poorly
|construction=appreciably susceptible
|metal=no
|weight=50
|lsize=5
|wsize=5
|hsize=1
|appcost=62
|sourcetype=-
|fname=No
}}

User talk:RY4NPW

2017-11-11T19:38:33Z

RCANINE: /* Crafting Materials */

==Ruins of Ulf'Hara==

Please do not alphabetize the current merchandise on the end loot tables. (The only times we alphabetize are situations where there is no one order, such as incidental loot, rotating stock, and limited items that are gradually released by special merchandise.) --[[User:ISHARON|ISHARON]] ([[User talk:ISHARON|talk]]) 03:02, 31 March 2016 (CDT)
:If you follow that rule, you will need to re-order every surface on each game crash/reboot since it reverses. I see no harm adding order where there is none. - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 09:46, 31 March 2016 (CDT)

==Festival Shops==

Please check to make sure that everything is identical before simply adding a festival to a shop page. If the currency and/or prices are different, a new version should be added instead. --[[User:ISHARON|ISHARON]] ([[User talk:ISHARON|talk]]) 20:17, 25 February 2016 (CST) 
 
Additionally, you do not need to separate ordinary items into things like t=j, t=f. I spoke with Caraamon, and we have no plans to use those features. So the only types are t=w (weapons and brawling), t=s (shields), t=a (armor and horse barding), and t=i (all other items). --[[User:ISHARON|ISHARON]] ([[User talk:ISHARON|talk]]) 20:34, 25 February 2016 (CST)

==Shaped Weapons==

Hello, could you please talk with me before updating more shaped weapon pages? I have a few questions for you. My IM is Linett Silvrtree and I am in game as Linett also, if you are right now and prefer that contact method. Thank you! --[[User:LOREALI6|LOREALI6]] ([[User talk:LOREALI6|talk]]) 10:11, 25 June 2015 (CDT)

== Herbs and Catalysts ==

Just an fyi, all those [[Catalyst]] links you removed from the herb pages were links in the 'Also see' section which means they are not saying that the herbs themselves are catalysts, but rather that it is a link indicating that the Catalysts page is a relevant related page that you might also want to check out. I'm restoring the links.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 17:00, 30 September 2015 (CDT)

:Healing herbs should really see also to [[Remedies#Catalysts]], not [[Catalyst|catalysts]]. The older Catalyst system has nothing to do with the healing herbs anymore. - [[Padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 23:30 30 September 2015 (UTC)
::I already redirected to the Catalyst section of the crafting materials page, but that looks like a better redirect. Updated.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 18:35, 30 September 2015 (CDT)

==Thanks for the Catch==
Just wanted to say thank you for catching my overreach on the worn locations. I never realized just how flexible Simu's naming scheme was.. it's kinda mind boggling! Your attention to detail is greatly appreciated! :-) - [[User:KASHNA|KASHNA]] ([[User talk:KASHNA|talk]]) 22:23 11 May 2016 (EST)

==Inventory Concept==
Hey I rolled back your changed to the [[Inventory (concept)‎|Inventory Concept]] page. If you want to redo your edits based on the current version (such as putting them in the current order) that's fine, but we'd like to keep the column that clearly shows the Premium Bonus slots. --[[User:GAMERGIRL151|GAMERGIRL151]] ([[User talk:GAMERGIRL151|talk]]) 20:05, 13 May 2016 (CDT)
:See [[Talk:Inventory (concept)‎]] - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 09:35, 14 May 2016 (CDT)

==Re:Lich scripts==
I replied on my user page ([[User talk:SHELTIM]]). I'm not sure how threaded conversations work here. Do we discuss this on my talk page, your talk page, the article's talk page...? I believe [[User:Seped]] and [[User:ABSOLON]] might also have some ideas on this topic. Is referencing their user page sufficient to get their attention (i.e. notify them of this conversation)? [[User:SHELTIM|SHELTIM]] ([[User talk:SHELTIM|talk]]) 10:41, 14 June 2016 (CDT)

== Taisidon 420 map ==

Thanks for uploading the new versions, and the link to the interactive one. I just noticed that the room numbers on the new map don't match the room numbers on the old map. For example, on the old map room 14 was where the Trading Post is, but on the new map, room 14 is where Shore to Floor is. 
Before I update the shop page table, I wondered if it was possible on your end to have the room numbers carry over from the old map. If not, that's ok too! --[[Kythryn]] 19:21, 5 August 2016 (CDT)

== Crafting Materials ==

Looks like your addition to [[Template:CraftProp]] broke the rarity filters on the [[Crafting Materials]] page.

[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 13:38, 11 November 2017 (CST)

User talk:RY4NPW

2017-11-11T19:38:02Z

RCANINE: /* Crafting Materials */ new section

==Ruins of Ulf'Hara==

Please do not alphabetize the current merchandise on the end loot tables. (The only times we alphabetize are situations where there is no one order, such as incidental loot, rotating stock, and limited items that are gradually released by special merchandise.) --[[User:ISHARON|ISHARON]] ([[User talk:ISHARON|talk]]) 03:02, 31 March 2016 (CDT)
:If you follow that rule, you will need to re-order every surface on each game crash/reboot since it reverses. I see no harm adding order where there is none. - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 09:46, 31 March 2016 (CDT)

==Festival Shops==

Please check to make sure that everything is identical before simply adding a festival to a shop page. If the currency and/or prices are different, a new version should be added instead. --[[User:ISHARON|ISHARON]] ([[User talk:ISHARON|talk]]) 20:17, 25 February 2016 (CST) 
 
Additionally, you do not need to separate ordinary items into things like t=j, t=f. I spoke with Caraamon, and we have no plans to use those features. So the only types are t=w (weapons and brawling), t=s (shields), t=a (armor and horse barding), and t=i (all other items). --[[User:ISHARON|ISHARON]] ([[User talk:ISHARON|talk]]) 20:34, 25 February 2016 (CST)

==Shaped Weapons==

Hello, could you please talk with me before updating more shaped weapon pages? I have a few questions for you. My IM is Linett Silvrtree and I am in game as Linett also, if you are right now and prefer that contact method. Thank you! --[[User:LOREALI6|LOREALI6]] ([[User talk:LOREALI6|talk]]) 10:11, 25 June 2015 (CDT)

== Herbs and Catalysts ==

Just an fyi, all those [[Catalyst]] links you removed from the herb pages were links in the 'Also see' section which means they are not saying that the herbs themselves are catalysts, but rather that it is a link indicating that the Catalysts page is a relevant related page that you might also want to check out. I'm restoring the links.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 17:00, 30 September 2015 (CDT)

:Healing herbs should really see also to [[Remedies#Catalysts]], not [[Catalyst|catalysts]]. The older Catalyst system has nothing to do with the healing herbs anymore. - [[Padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 23:30 30 September 2015 (UTC)
::I already redirected to the Catalyst section of the crafting materials page, but that looks like a better redirect. Updated.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 18:35, 30 September 2015 (CDT)

==Thanks for the Catch==
Just wanted to say thank you for catching my overreach on the worn locations. I never realized just how flexible Simu's naming scheme was.. it's kinda mind boggling! Your attention to detail is greatly appreciated! :-) - [[User:KASHNA|KASHNA]] ([[User talk:KASHNA|talk]]) 22:23 11 May 2016 (EST)

==Inventory Concept==
Hey I rolled back your changed to the [[Inventory (concept)‎|Inventory Concept]] page. If you want to redo your edits based on the current version (such as putting them in the current order) that's fine, but we'd like to keep the column that clearly shows the Premium Bonus slots. --[[User:GAMERGIRL151|GAMERGIRL151]] ([[User talk:GAMERGIRL151|talk]]) 20:05, 13 May 2016 (CDT)
:See [[Talk:Inventory (concept)‎]] - [[User:RY4NPW|padhg]] ([[User talk:RY4NPW|talk]]) 09:35, 14 May 2016 (CDT)

==Re:Lich scripts==
I replied on my user page ([[User talk:SHELTIM]]). I'm not sure how threaded conversations work here. Do we discuss this on my talk page, your talk page, the article's talk page...? I believe [[User:Seped]] and [[User:ABSOLON]] might also have some ideas on this topic. Is referencing their user page sufficient to get their attention (i.e. notify them of this conversation)? [[User:SHELTIM|SHELTIM]] ([[User talk:SHELTIM|talk]]) 10:41, 14 June 2016 (CDT)

== Taisidon 420 map ==

Thanks for uploading the new versions, and the link to the interactive one. I just noticed that the room numbers on the new map don't match the room numbers on the old map. For example, on the old map room 14 was where the Trading Post is, but on the new map, room 14 is where Shore to Floor is. 
Before I update the shop page table, I wondered if it was possible on your end to have the room numbers carry over from the old map. If not, that's ok too! --[[Kythryn]] 19:21, 5 August 2016 (CDT)

== Crafting Materials ==

Looks like your addition to [[Template:CraftProp]] broke the rarity filters on the the [[Category:Crafting Materials]] page.

[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 13:38, 11 November 2017 (CST)

Shield:Ceremonial tel'athi shield embossed with a pattern of stylized intertwining snakes

2017-11-05T17:14:30Z

RCANINE: Added dimensions and source

{{Shield
|name=ceremonial tel'athi shield embossed with a pattern of stylized intertwining snakes
|newshieldapp=Yes
|noun=shield
|look=Centered amongst the scaled bodies is a single, perfect Hav'roth's ambrosia.
|MTag=tel'athi, Hav'roth's ambrosia
|CTag=-
|STag=snake
|type=ssh
|hindrance=minor
|minprotection=poor
|maxprotection=very good
|puncture=no
|slice=no
|impact=very heavy
|balance=decently
|suitedness=inadequately
|construction=highly protected
|metal=yes
|weight=80
|lsize=5
|wsize=5
|hsize=1
|appcost=10,000
|source=Snake Pit
|cost=8000 Tickets
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=-
}}

Weapon:Heavy book entitled "Mightier Than the Sword!"

2017-11-05T17:08:49Z

RCANINE:

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=book
|look=-
|range=melee
|adraw=No
|type=LB
|puncture=no
|slice=low
|impact=very heavy
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=decently
|balance=fairly
|suitedness=decently
|type2=LT
|puncture2=no
|slice2=low
|impact2=very heavy
|fire2=no
|cold2=no
|electric2=no
|foi2=decently
|balance2=fairly
|suitedness2=decently
|construction=quite guarded
|metal=no
|weight=50
|lsize=4
|wsize=3
|hsize=2
|appcost=6250
|source=Famous Last Words (5)
|cost=5000 Tickets
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
}}

Weapon:Leaf-bladed bronze longsword with a brown-mottled ivory grip

2017-11-05T08:59:01Z

RCANINE: Created page with "{{Weapon |newapp2=Yes |noun=longsword |look=- |MTag=Ivory, Bronze, |CTag=brown, |adraw=No |type=HE |puncture=poor |slice=heavy |impact=somewhat moderate |fire=no |cold=no |ele..."

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=longsword
|look=-
|MTag=Ivory, Bronze,
|CTag=brown,
|adraw=No
|type=HE
|puncture=poor
|slice=heavy
|impact=somewhat moderate
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=poorly
|balance=inadequately
|suitedness=well
|construction=rather reinforced
|metal=yes
|source=Visions of Holiness (3)
|cost=10,824 Dokoras
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
}}

Weapon:Heavy book entitled "Mightier Than the Sword!"

2017-11-04T11:51:44Z

RCANINE: Created page with "{{Weapon |newapp2=Yes |noun=book |look=- |range=melee |adraw=No |type=LB |puncture=no |slice=low |impact=very heavy |fire=no |cold=no |electric=no |foi=decently |balance=fairl..."

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=book
|look=-
|range=melee
|adraw=No
|type=LB
|puncture=no
|slice=low
|impact=very heavy
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=decently
|balance=fairly
|suitedness=decently
|type2=LT
|puncture2=no
|slice2=low
|impact2=very heavy
|fire2=no
|cold2=no
|electric2=no
|foi2=decently
|balance2=fairly
|suitedness2=decently
|construction=quite guarded
|metal=no
|appcost=6250
|source=Famous Last Words (5)
|cost=5000 Tickets
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
}}

Weapon:Heavy sledgehammer with a head forged to resemble a pig's snout

2017-11-01T03:35:00Z

RCANINE:

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=sledgehammer
|look=-
|STag=Pig,
|range=melee
|adraw=No
|type=HB
|puncture=no
|slice=poor
|impact=very great
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=well
|balance=poorly
|suitedness=soundly
|construction=average construction
|metal=yes
|source=This 'N' That (7)
|cost=281
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
}}

Weapon:Heavy sledgehammer with a head forged to resemble a pig's snout

2017-11-01T03:33:58Z

RCANINE: Created page with "{{Weapon |newapp2=No |STag=Pig, |range=melee |adraw=No |type=LB |puncture=no |slice=poor |impact=very great |fire=no |cold=no |electric=no |foi=well |balance=poorly |suitednes..."

{{Weapon
|newapp2=No
|STag=Pig,
|range=melee
|adraw=No
|type=LB
|puncture=no
|slice=poor
|impact=very great
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=well
|balance=poorly
|suitedness=soundly
|construction=average construction
|metal=yes
|source=This 'N' That (7)
|cost=281
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
}}

This 'N' That (7)

2017-11-01T03:29:54Z

RCANINE: Missed a space in the desc

{{disambig2|This 'N' That}}

{{Store At A Glance
|Store Name = This 'N' That
|Owner = -
|NumRooms = 1
|Store Type = Clothing,Container,Jewelry,Miscellaneous,Toy
|Fest = Hollow Eve Festival 425
|Coin = Dokoras
}}

{{ShopDescription
|roomname=This 'N' That
|desc=Scraps of yellow, red, blue and green cloth, ranging from roughly spun wool to fine silks, separate this room into quadrants. In several places among the fabrics are bare spots, revealing plain metal walls and ceiling. You also see an exit door, a large board, a green trunk with several things on it, a blue box with several things on it, a red rack with several things on it and a yellow table with several things on it. 
Obvious exits: none.
}}

A large board reads:
{|
|<pre>"These are amateur artisans. Based on popularity, one may be sponsored to host their own shop with an expanded inventory in the future! We are excited to announce that our winner last year, ScallyWags, will be opening a shop and we wish them the best of luck. In the meantime, we welcome our new artisans and welcome back "Superfluous Scarves" who was our runner-up the second year in a row!"</pre>
|}

{{ShopHeader|title=On the green trunk}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|slender chainmail bracelet|180}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|twisted silver chain strung with a deformed wedding ring|180}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|pair of earrings fashioned from twisted lockpicks|180}}
{{ShopFootnote|A green note reads: "Twice-Loved Trinkets"}}
|}

{{ShopHeader|title=On the blue box}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|rounded ebony bracelet set with long onyx bones|451}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|dark glass amulet encasing a curled obsidian dragon|180}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|charcoal suede boots encircled with twisting black thorned vines|902}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|charred steel signet ring set with a black diamond skull|902}}
{{ShopFootnote|A blue page reads: "Shadowy Selections"}}
|}

{{ShopHeader|title=On the red rack}}
{{ShopItem|t=w|heavy sledgehammer with a head forged to resemble a pig's snout|281}}
{{ShopItem|t=w|rough club carved in the shape of a fried chicken leg|162}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|spotted cow-hide boots with bronze udder-shaped buckles|902}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|triangular goat head pendant set with amber eyes|180}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|fluffy plush sheep fitted with a miniature set of leather armor|1172}}
{{ShopFootnote|A red card reads: "Farmyard Fineries"}}
|}

{{ShopHeader|title=On the yellow table}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|gravestone pin draped with a wreath of tropical blooms|451}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|scruffy pale grey death squirrel wearing a colorful silk lei|1,804}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|silver fish skeleton earrings with tiny silk buds dangling from the ribs|2,255}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|black plush spider wearing a grass skirt|1,804}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|ivory skull pendant painted with tropical blooms|4,510}}
{{ShopFootnote|A yellow parchment reads: "Tropical Terror"}}
|}

This 'N' That

2017-11-01T03:28:59Z

RCANINE: Added link to 2017 inventory

{{disambig}}

There have been multiple incarnations of the store '''This 'N' That''':
*[[This 'N' That (1)]]: [[Hollow Eve 396]] (2009)
*[[This 'N' That (2)]]: [[Hollow Eve 399]] (2010)
*[[This 'N' That (3)]]: [[Hollow Eve 403]] (2011), [[Hollow Eve 406]] (2012), [[Hollow Eve 410]] (2013)
*[[This 'N' That (4)]]: [[Hollow Eve 414]] (2014)
*[[This 'N' That (5)]]: [[Hollow Eve 417]] (2015)
*[[This 'N' That (6)]]: [[Hollow Eve 421]] (2016)
*[[This 'N' That (7)]]: [[Hollow Eve 425]] (2017)

This 'N' That (7)

2017-11-01T03:28:08Z

RCANINE: Created page with "{{disambig2|This 'N' That}} {{Store At A Glance |Store Name = This 'N' That |Owner = - |NumRooms = 1 |Store Type = Clothing,Container,Jewelry,Miscellaneous,Toy |Fest..."

{{disambig2|This 'N' That}}

{{Store At A Glance
|Store Name = This 'N' That
|Owner = -
|NumRooms = 1
|Store Type = Clothing,Container,Jewelry,Miscellaneous,Toy
|Fest = Hollow Eve Festival 425
|Coin = Dokoras
}}

{{ShopDescription
|roomname=This 'N' That
|desc=Scraps of yellow, red, blue and green cloth, ranging from roughly spun wool to fine silks, separate this room into quadrants. In several places among the fabrics are bare spots, revealing plain metal walls and ceiling. You also see an exit door, a large board, a green trunk with several things on it, a blue box with several things on it, a red rack with several things on it and a yellow table with several things on it. 
Obvious exits: none.
}}

A large board reads:
{|
|<pre>"These are amateur artisans. Based on popularity, one may be sponsored to host their own shop with an expanded inventory in the future! We are excited to announce that our winner last year, ScallyWags, will be opening a shop and we wish them the best of luck. In the meantime, we welcome our new artisans and welcome back "Superfluous Scarves" who was our runner-upthe second year in a row!"</pre>
|}

{{ShopHeader|title=On the green trunk}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|slender chainmail bracelet|180}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|twisted silver chain strung with a deformed wedding ring|180}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|pair of earrings fashioned from twisted lockpicks|180}}
{{ShopFootnote|A green note reads: "Twice-Loved Trinkets"}}
|}

{{ShopHeader|title=On the blue box}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|rounded ebony bracelet set with long onyx bones|451}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|dark glass amulet encasing a curled obsidian dragon|180}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|charcoal suede boots encircled with twisting black thorned vines|902}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|charred steel signet ring set with a black diamond skull|902}}
{{ShopFootnote|A blue page reads: "Shadowy Selections"}}
|}

{{ShopHeader|title=On the red rack}}
{{ShopItem|t=w|heavy sledgehammer with a head forged to resemble a pig's snout|281}}
{{ShopItem|t=w|rough club carved in the shape of a fried chicken leg|162}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|spotted cow-hide boots with bronze udder-shaped buckles|902}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|triangular goat head pendant set with amber eyes|180}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|fluffy plush sheep fitted with a miniature set of leather armor|1172}}
{{ShopFootnote|A red card reads: "Farmyard Fineries"}}
|}

{{ShopHeader|title=On the yellow table}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|gravestone pin draped with a wreath of tropical blooms|451}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|scruffy pale grey death squirrel wearing a colorful silk lei|1,804}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|silver fish skeleton earrings with tiny silk buds dangling from the ribs|2,255}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|black plush spider wearing a grass skirt|1,804}}
{{ShopItem|t=i|ivory skull pendant painted with tropical blooms|4,510}}
{{ShopFootnote|A yellow parchment reads: "Tropical Terror"}}
|}

Weapon:Silvered broadsword etched with a line of geese along the blade

2017-11-01T02:30:09Z

RCANINE:

{{Weapon
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=broadsword
|look=Bows, hats, and even galoshes adorn each bird waddling along the metal, while one at the end of the line fell flat on its face. The hilt is wrapped with soft suede with the words "Silly Goose" burned into the surface.
|MTag=silver,
|range=melee
|adraw=No
|type=HE
|puncture=poor
|slice=heavy
|impact=somewhat fair
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=dismally
|balance=fairly
|suitedness=decently
|construction=average construction
|metal=yes
|weight=30
|wearloc=-
|source=Just a Slice
|cost=11726 Dokoras
|sourcetype=sold by
|fname=No
}}

Weapon:Blackened bastard sword with a bloodstained leather grip

2017-10-29T16:53:21Z

RCANINE: Updated with new appraisals

{{Weapon
|rev=1
|newapp2=Yes
|noun=sword
|look=-
|MTag=blood,leather
|CTag=black
|STag=blood,bloodstain
|range=melee
|adraw=No
|type=HE
|puncture=low
|slice=heavy
|impact=fair
|fire=no
|cold=no
|electric=no
|foi=poorly
|balance=fairly
|suitedness=decently
|type2=2HE
|puncture2=fair
|slice2=great
|impact2=moderate
|fire2=no
|cold2=no
|electric2=no
|foi2=inadequately
|balance2=decently
|suitedness2=reasonably
|construction=average construction
|metal=yes
|weight=47
|lsize=10
|wsize=1
|hsize=1
|appcost=6,250
|sourcetype=-
|itype=bastard sword
|rare=yes
|fname=No
}}

Talk:Fire maiden

2017-10-21T07:43:43Z

RCANINE:

Fire Maidens are definitely stronger than described in this article. I do not know the exact ranges, so I won't edit the page, but I do know that at 93 weapons ranks, about half of my attacks miss. With 105 Multi and leather armor, and about 100 defenses they start hitting me at 2 engaged creatures. With 3 or 4 engaged creatures, they hit hard enough to stun and injure me.

I was fine as armor / survival tert at 100 ranks. Weapons soft capped around 80 ranks.

[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 02:43, 21 October 2017 (CDT)

==Manipulate==
'''8/11/2015:''' Checked manipulate status with 617 Empathy. Result as added. [[User:HERALD42|HERALD42]] ([[User talk:HERALD42|talk]]) 07:44, 11 August 2015 (CDT)

Refresh

2017-10-19T12:56:34Z

RCANINE: Switched back to intro to match in-game discern

{{Spell
|abbrev=-
|minprep=1
|castcap=100
|minskill=0
|maxskill=400
|minduration=10
|maxduration=40
|validtarget=Self, PC
|guild=Empath
|spellbook=Life Force Manipulation
|prereqs=[[Heal Scars]]
|slot=2
|desc=Refresh strengthens the subject with a rarified form of Life energy, increasing how quickly he recovers from fatigue. This pattern can even fortify the subject beyond his normal limits, granting him supernatural endurance. Though it can be cast on others, the pattern is especially effective when self-cast.
|buffs=Fatigue
|debuffs=No debuffs
|dtype=No damage
|htype=Fatigue heal
|messaging=You gesture. 
Soft waves of a gentle, warm peach color flicker around you.
|sig=No
|diff=basic
|source=standard
|type=augmentation
|ctype=standard
}}
==Notes==
* Increases maximum fatigue pool.
* In addition to giving a boost to fatigue recovery rate, it also instantly restores a very minor amount of fatigue. The spell can be cast multiple times to help recover drained fatigue, but the caster must either cast at a higher amount than the previous cast, or release the existing refresh boon on them.

Talk:Refresh

2017-10-19T12:53:45Z

RCANINE:

Spell was previously noted as intro difficulty, but discern shows it as basic.

''> discern refresh

''Refresh strengthens the subject with a rarified form of Life energy, increasing how quickly he recovers from fatigue. This pattern can even fortify the subject beyond his normal limits, granting him supernatural endurance. Though it can be cast on others, the pattern is especially effective when self-cast.

''This is a non-battle spell that can be cast on a single target. Non-battle spells have significantly longer preparation times than battle spells. It can be cast without a target and on other adventurers. It requires a minimum of five mana streams, and can expand to a maximum of one hundred mana streams woven into it. To begin to be able to cast this spell, you will need to reach the rank of a promising novice. By the time you have mastered this spell, you will be ranked as a genius in your abilities as a caster. It requires the Augmentation skill to cast effectively. Before you can learn this spell, you must know Heal Scars. It will also cost two spell slots.''

[[User:FROSC02|FROSC02]] ([[User talk:FROSC02|talk]])

Repots as basic for me:

>discern Refresh

Refresh strengthens the subject with a rarified form of Life energy, increasing how quickly he recovers from fatigue. This pattern can even fortify the subject beyond his normal limits, granting him supernatural endurance. Though it can be cast on others, the pattern is especially effective when self-cast.

This is a non-battle spell that can be cast on a single target. Non-battle spells have significantly longer preparation times than battle spells. It can be cast without a target and on other adventurers. It requires a minimum of one mana streams, and can expand to a maximum of one hundred mana streams woven into it. To begin to be able to cast this spell, you will need to reach the rank of a lowly novice. By the time you have mastered this spell, you will be ranked as a professional in your abilities as a caster. It requires the Augmentation skill to cast effectively. Before you can learn this spell, you must know Heal Scars. It will also cost two spell slots.

The spell requires at minimum 1 mana streams and you think you can reinforce it with 2 more, for a total of 3 streams.

[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 07:51, 19 October 2017 (CDT)

Talk:Refresh

2017-10-19T12:51:00Z

RCANINE:

Spell was previously noted as intro difficulty, but discern shows it as basic.

''> discern refresh

''Refresh strengthens the subject with a rarified form of Life energy, increasing how quickly he recovers from fatigue. This pattern can even fortify the subject beyond his normal limits, granting him supernatural endurance. Though it can be cast on others, the pattern is especially effective when self-cast.

''This is a non-battle spell that can be cast on a single target. Non-battle spells have significantly longer preparation times than battle spells. It can be cast without a target and on other adventurers. It requires a minimum of five mana streams, and can expand to a maximum of one hundred mana streams woven into it. To begin to be able to cast this spell, you will need to reach the rank of a promising novice. By the time you have mastered this spell, you will be ranked as a genius in your abilities as a caster. It requires the Augmentation skill to cast effectively. Before you can learn this spell, you must know Heal Scars. It will also cost two spell slots.''

[[User:FROSC02|FROSC02]] ([[User talk:FROSC02|talk]])

Repots as basic for me:

>discern Refresh
Refresh strengthens the subject with a rarified form of Life energy, increasing how quickly he recovers from fatigue. This pattern can even fortify the subject beyond his normal limits, granting him supernatural endurance. Though it can be cast on others, the pattern is especially effective when self-cast.

This is a non-battle spell that can be cast on a single target. Non-battle spells have significantly longer preparation times than battle spells. It can be cast without a target and on other adventurers. It requires a minimum of one mana streams, and can expand to a maximum of one hundred mana streams woven into it. To begin to be able to cast this spell, you will need to reach the rank of a lowly novice. By the time you have mastered this spell, you will be ranked as a professional in your abilities as a caster. It requires the Augmentation skill to cast effectively. Before you can learn this spell, you must know Heal Scars. It will also cost two spell slots.

The spell requires at minimum 1 mana streams and you think you can reinforce it with 2 more, for a total of 3 streams.

[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 07:51, 19 October 2017 (CDT)

Talk:Remedies (script)

2017-10-02T16:08:37Z

RCANINE: Created page with "This script worked well but has a couple bugs: * If you have your materials in groups more than necessary, you'll need to manually STOW the leftovers * If you use the last of..."

This script worked well but has a couple bugs:

* If you have your materials in groups more than necessary, you'll need to manually STOW the leftovers
* If you use the last of your water (or alcohol) the script will pause waiting for you to put it away

Other than that it works great!

[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 11:08, 2 October 2017 (CDT)

Shield of Light

2017-09-26T17:00:59Z

RCANINE: Changed the prereqs to match the game: I have DR, and not MaPP but can choose SOL

{{Spell
|abbrev=sol
|minprep=15
|castcap=100
|minskill=80
|maxskill=800
|minduration=10
|maxduration=40
|validtarget=Self
|guild=Cleric
|spellbook=Holy Defense
|prereqs=Circle 10, [[Divine Radiance]] or [[Major Physical Protection]]
|slot=3
|desc=The Shield of Light spell creates a blessed shield, keeping it in existence as long as the pattern holds. This divine shield is very light, can be shaped somewhat, and will also allow the cleric to block attacks with greater accuracy than they would otherwise with mundane shields.
|buffs=Shield Usage skill
|debuffs=No debuffs
|dtype=No damage
|htype=No heal
|effect=Conjures a shield
|messaging='''Cast without a shield:''' 
In a fiery blaze, a shimmering tower shield appears in your left hand. 

'''Wearing the shield:''' 
Your shield dissolves into a pinpoint of light and quickly reconstructs itself as a flickering oval shield on your left arm. 

'''Shaping the shield:''' 
Your shield suddenly fluctuates, changing shape and reforming into a luminous target shield. 

'''Effect ends:''' 
Your tower shield fades away into nothingness. 

'''Cast while holding or wearing a shield:''' 
A fiery blaze covers your shield arm like a vambrace of solid sunlight.
|sig=Yes
|diff=intermediate
|source=standard
|type=augmentation, utility
|ctype=standard
}}
==Notes==
*Can be used with an [[Osrel Meraud]] orb.
*Shield of Light does not summon a shield if you are already holding or wearing one, although you still get the skill buff.
*The summoned oval (medium sized) shield of light can be arm-worn despite being larger than what a cleric could normally wear.
*[[Unbend sigil|Unbend sigils]] can destroy a shield of light when dropped in the same room.

{{RTOC}}
==Syntax==
* {{com|SHAPE}} {{tt|SHIELD TO}} ''<option>''

===Examples===
: SHAPE SHIELD TO TARGET 
: SHAPE SHIELD TO MERAUD 

===Valid options===
* target (small)
* oval (medium)
* tower (large)
* spiked (adds puncture damage)
* blank (without spikes)
* the name of any Immortal (alters appearance)
* custom (alters appearance, requires custom scroll)

Target (small) and oval (medium) options can be worn on the arm. Tower (large) shields will automatically shape to oval when worn.

====Custom designs====
Custom scrolls have been sold at various festival shops (e.g. [[See The Light]]) or are available as part of quest loot (e.g. the [[Item:Salt-stained vellum scroll|salt-stained vellum scroll]]). When you {{com|shape}} {{tt|shield to custom}}, your shield will take on the appearance set in the last scroll you studied.

These custom scrolls bind to the user when you {{com|study}} them. Once a scroll has been studied by one cleric, another cleric cannot study them to learn the pattern. The scroll is not destroyed, however, allowing you to collect multiple scrolls with different designs.

==Protection==
{|class="wikitable sortable"
|-
!Option||Size||Weight||Hindrance||Held Basic||Held Full||Worn Basic||Worn Full
|-
|target||small||35||01-insignificant||03-dismal||09-better than fair||03-dismal||07-low
|-
|oval||medium||62||04-minor||05-poor||12-good||05-poor||10-moderate
|-
|tower||large||100||07-moderate||07-low||16-great||-||-
|}

==Protection with Shield crafting technique==
{|class="wikitable sortable"
|-
!Option||Size||Weight||Hindrance||Held Basic||Held Full||Worn Basic||Worn Full
|-
|target||small||35||01-insignificant||03-dismal||10-moderate||-||-
|-
|oval||medium||62||04-minor||06-rather low||13-very good||-||-
|-
|tower||large||100||07-moderate||07-low||17-very great||-||-
|}

{{RefAl}}

Item:Deed register

2017-09-25T00:16:32Z

RCANINE: /* Verbs */

{{Item
|noun=register
|look=-
|CTag=-
|MTag=-
|STag=-
|type=container,stacking,alchemy,enchanting,engineering,forging,outfitting,writing
|wearloc=-
|appcost=-
|weight=1
|lsize=1
|wsize=1
|hsize=1
|ilsize=-
|sourcetype=-
|fname=No
}}

Deed registers are a convenient way to store and organize deeds. Any deeds placed in the register will not count against your inventory limit.

To obtain a deed register, go to the clerk in any crafting society and {{com|ASK}} {{tt|CLERK FOR REGISTER}}.

==Verbs==
*{{com|PUT}} {{tt|DEED IN REGISTER}}: You place your ''<adjective>'' deed inside a deed register.
*{{com|PUSH}} {{tt|DEED WITH REGISTER}}: same as {{tt|PUT}} above.
*{{com|PULL}}: You remove a deed for a ''<adjective>'' from your a deed register.
*:Note the reguster must be turned to a specific page before you {{tt|PULL}}.
*{{com|TAP}}: same as {{tt|PULL}} above.
*{{com|TURN}} {{tt|REGISTER TO CONTENTS}}: You flip your deed register to the contents page.
*{{com|TURN}} {{tt|REGISTER TO PAGE #}}: You flip your deed register to page #.
*{{com|WRITE}} ''<message>'': You write "<message>" on page # of your deed register with your quill.
*:Note you must have your reigster and quill in hand and the register must be turned to a specific page before you {{tt|WRITE}}.
*{{com|RUB}}: You rub away the words "<message>" from page # of your deed register.
*:Note the register must be turned to a specific page before you {{tt|RUB}}.
*{{com|STUDY}}:
This is a register that holds crafting deeds. To use this book, TURN to the page you want to store the deed on and PUT the deed inside the book. Alternatively, if you TURN the register to CONTENTS and PUT the deed inside, you'll automatically put the deed in the first empty page.

To retrieve a deed, simply TURN the register to the page containing the desired deed and PULL the register. This will remove the deed from the deed register so that you can hand it to a clerk.

You can also WRITE a short note on a deed in the register. To do this, you must have a stylus (or other appropriate writing utensil) in one hand and the register in the other. To erase these notes, RUB the register.

The deed register currently contains 7 deeds, and can hold a maximum of 50.
*{{com|read}} (from contents):
Stored Deeds:

Page -- Deed

1 -- a deed for a bronze ingot
2 -- a deed for an oravir ingot
3 -- a deed for a lead ingot
4 -- a deed for a nickel ingot
5 -- a deed for a zinc ingot
6 -- a deed for a steel ingot (60v, 99q, 67% low carbon steel, 33% oravir --Padhg)
7 -- a deed for an electrum ingot (210v --Padhg)

Currently stored: 7
Maximum: 50
*{{com|READ}} (from specific page): displays the crafting properties as if you {{com|READ}} the deed on that page directly (see {{ilink|i|crafting deed#Verbs}})

==Notes==
*The writing utensil must be a "quill" or a "stylus" (i.e. "pen"s and other types will not work). A {{ilink|w|dyrachis quill}} from [[Spiny Dyrachis]] can be used as a writing utensil.
*Furniture vouchers cannot be placed in a deed register.

{{RefAl|p=-|a=y}}
*[[Deed packet]]
*{{ilink|i|Crafting deed}}

Malodorous bucca

2017-09-17T07:34:34Z

RCANINE: /* In Depth */

{{Critter
|Critter Name=Malodorous Bucca
|MinCap=50
|MaxCap=65
|BodyType=Biped
|new=Yes
|level=11
|Skinnable=no
|Has Coins=yes
|Has Gems=yes
|Has Boxes=yes
|Evil=no
|Construct=no
|Corporeal=yes
|BackStabbable=yes
|Casts Spells=no
|Stealthy=no
|Special=no
|Attack Range=Melee
|Province=Forfedhdar, Zoluren
|City=Sunfall Hub, Raven's Point
|MapList=*{{rmap|9c | High Mountains & Sunfall Hub (9c)}}
|MapList2=*{{rmap|124 | Abandoned Mines (124)}}
|hasskin=No
|Skin Name=
|Skin Weight=
|haspart=No
|Part Name=
|Part Weight=
|hasbone=No
|Bone Name=
|Bone Weight=
|RequiredRanks=
|MaxVal=
|MaxArrangedVal=
|mskill1=
|mskill2=
|mcap=
|hasorgan=No
|Organ Name=
|Organ Weight=
}}
__NOTOC__

==Description==
Appearing to be the curious cross-breed of a [[goblin]] and a [[kobold]], the malodorous bucca hops about with an untamed maniacal glint in its eyes. About three feet tall and slight of build, the malodorous buccas are most noted for their yellow teeth, foul disposition and above all their horrendous stench. A wild mane of black air drapes its body like a thick coat, partially wrapped in the tattered remains of clothing that dangle from its shoulders and waist. The malodorous bucca is well known for its trickery in the mines they tend to call home, causing sometime tragic accidents when their desire to cause mayhem and chaos get the better of them.

==In Depth==
Malodorous Buccas used to be known as Malodorous Tommyknockers.
 
Occasionally, when they are killed they will explode. This does no damage, but will cover people in the room with slime that will periodically drip off them.
 
Boxes are slightly more difficult than [[Faenrae Reaver]]s; as survival tertiary, they require about 45 ranks.
 
They still teach tactics at 89 ranks. Does not move off clear at 91. Defending (64) and Parry (65) do not move past dabbling. Maybe creatures have a defense skill cap and an offense skill cap?
 
Warrior Mage: Parry soft cap 66, TM soft cap 75 [3/30/2016]
Warrior Mage, as well: Confirm above. Locked LE after 30-45m through 60's.

Weapon:Schiavona

2017-09-14T07:26:41Z

RCANINE: fixed incorrect capitalization

{{Weapon
|look=
|noun=schiavona
|STag=flame,fire,claw,snake,cobra,lion,jaguar,raven,bird,dragon,skull,rose,acorn,star,rose,flower
|type=HE
|range=melee
|puncture=poor
|slice=heavy
|impact=moderate
|balance=fairly
|suitedness=fairly
|construction=moderately strong
|metal=y
|weight=56
|appcost=
|sourcetype=sold by
|source=Krrikt'k's Forge
|cost=120,000 Lirums
}}

==Variations==
'''Krrikt'k's Forge:''' Fullered, Double-fuller, Flame-edged, Swept-hilt, Basket-hilt, Spiral-hilt, Ring-guard, Cup-guard, Shell-guard, Ribbon-guard, Claw-pommel, Snake-pommel, Cobra-pommel, Lion-pommel, Jaguar-pommel, Raven-pommel, Dragon-pommel, Skull-pommel, Rose-pommel, Acorn-pommel, Star-etched, Rose-etched

Talk:Revenant conscript

2017-09-13T05:39:03Z

RCANINE:

Copied and pasted from Revenant Warrior, then redirected. My baby cleric is fighting these now, and I found Revenant Warrior to be misleading since the critter name is actually revenant conscript. I'll change it back if anyone has problems with it this way.
:--[[User:Kittn|Kittn]] 20:06, 22 February 2008 (CST)
I'm backtraining on these, and had shield finally cap out at 60 on them, so defenses may have an upper limit of 60. -- [[User:Uthrecht|Uthrecht]] 21:53, 3 July 2008 (CDT)

Hit a weapon soft cap at 49
[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 00:39, 13 September 2017 (CDT)

== Are they still corporeal? ==

I recently took a new Barbarian to these. I used to hunt them with non-blessed weapons quite successfully. Now my weapons pass right through them doing no damage of any kind.

Someone might want to double check this in case something was wrong. I've tried twice with same result.

E.-
:I also '''thought''' they used to be corporeal, but I recall recently having my weapons slide right through them after a while without refreshing my bless. No idea if its a bug --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 16:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Blue flower

2017-09-10T17:57:19Z

RCANINE:

I've tested on two different characters (Warrior Mage and Cleric) for when they can successfully forage for blue flower. Both were able to get them at 42 ranks during the day and 63 at night. This doesn't appear to be gradual but rather a binary function (repeated failures, the sun comes up and instant success).

I'm just not familiar with how to modify a wiki. I tried to update the table but could only put in one or the other value so I duplicated the table, one for day, one for night. If someone could fix it to one table I would appreciate it.

I was able to forage blue flowers in Willow Walk at dusk with 36 ranks in Outdoorsmanship [[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 12:57, 10 September 2017 (CDT)

Talk:Bone wolf

2017-09-10T14:52:44Z

RCANINE:

I'm at the bone wolves at Leth, shield use is 100 and still muddled, brawling is 65 and locked.
:Is this with only one wolf on you? Or in a multi situation. Multiopp situations can extend the cap, and IIRC the caps listed on elanthipedia are single critter caps. [[User:VTCifer|VTCifer]] 13:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

With 4 wolves evasion learning stops at 108 ranks. - [[user:pathian|Pathian]]

Bone Wolves were hitting me pretty consistently with Shield/Evasion/Parry 53 - 55 as armor/survival tertiary in a single armor type. Large Edged hit consistently at 53; Heavy Thrown about 50/50 at 44. Defensives probably need to be closer to 60 before attempting them. [[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 09:52, 10 September 2017 (CDT)

Talk:Runestones

2017-09-06T16:21:56Z

RCANINE: /* Appears outdated */

{{RTOC}}
==Collecting some data here.==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Runestone
! Mana at 100%
|-
| Rhodonite
| 17
|-
| Imnera
| 7
|-
| Elbaite
| 25
|-
| Asketine
| 15
|-
| Calavarite
| 15
|-
| Avaes
| 7
|-
| Azurite
| 8
|}
--[[User:Antendren|Antendren]] 14:25, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Checked my Elbaite runestone and it has the Instinct spell in it, so I updated the table.

--[[User:Alphonsis|Alphonsis]] 8:40, 30 January 2013 (PST)

general data, specifics to come.
assuming the sorcery cap is higher on runestones that give more experience, the following list shows least to greatest: rhodonite, imnera, calavarite.

-- Hobris, June 17, 2014

Just went to check the new runes sold in Shard.

Electrum Runestone (Eagle's Cry)
Topaz Runestone (Protection From Evil)
Quartz Runestone (Refresh)

All three runes were 6 more uses.

[[User:VAGELO|[[User:Ndin|Ndin]] ([[User talk:Ndin|talk]])]] ([[User talk:VAGELO|talk]]) 23:09, 12 August 2015 (CDT)

== Appears outdated ==

It appears this area and the main runestone page are outdated with the 3.1 rune/stone changes. I don't know how to mark a page as outdated, so I'll just try to fix the ones for the runestones I currently have.

Here's some that I have:

* You tap a colorful elbaite runestone marked with a symbol for Ease Burden that you are holding.
* You tap a pale avaes runestone marked with a symbol for Clear Vision that you are holding.
* You tap an ilmenite runestone marked with a symbol for Clear Vision that you are holding.

My skills aren't high enough yet to get muchinformation from them.

[[User:RCANINE|RCANINE]] ([[User talk:RCANINE|talk]]) 11:21, 6 September 2017 (CDT)

== Runestones Futile For Casting Spells? ==
With 140+ primary magic, attunement and arcana, along with 74 sorcery, my cleric produces a hopeless backfire on a minimum prep invocation of the Pale Aves Runestone (Clear Vision). If this is the case, what in the world is required to actually successfully use a runestone? ...such a crazy steep requirement... [[User:KASHNA|Kashna]] ([[User talk:KASHNA|talk]]) 18:13, May 30, 2016 
:Most (currently all?) runestones are not actually invoked at minimum prep. They typically are prepared with 20 mana when you invoke them. You can check by using PERC or CONC after you have invoked it to see a line about how much mana you are preparing it with. Depending on the spell, that could mean upwards of 200-250 sorcery skill to cast. Just a guesstimate for that mana amount, the actual requirements might vary.--[[User:ABSOLON|ABSOLON]] ([[User talk:ABSOLON|talk]]) 17:49, 30 May 2016 (CDT)

elanthipedia:Town Green (policy)

2008-04-17T00:37:46Z

RCANINE: /* IG Secrets */

{{Towngreenpages|Policy discussion|This '''policy''' section of the Town Green is to discuss [[Elanthipedia:Policy|existing and proposed policies and guidelines]] here at Elanthipedia.}}

== New users with strange names ==

Four new users have been created within the last week with similarly weird, code-like names:

[[User:Gj0Vxn|Gj0Vxn]], [[User:LyuZsg|LyuZsg]], [[User:TycZzv|TycZzv]], and [[User:CpaPqe|CpaPqe]]. Seems kind of fishy to me. Is it possible to run an IP check on them and/or otherwise see whether they're legit or not? None have performed any edits yet. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 16:51, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

:If it becomes a problem we can utilize the captcha extension, and make new users enter a string. And/Or we can utilize SpamBlackList which protects us from malicious edits. --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 21:14, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

I noticed that too. We'll watch them.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 22:08, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

== IG Secrets ==

I think it would be useful to state the policy on revealing in-game secrets in articles. Please correct me or add to this if I am wrong.

* Posting in-game secrets or solutions to quests is discouraged on a main article page, as this might reveal the information to someone who came to the article seeking general info only.

A good way to segregate info on secrets is to make a sub-page off the main article. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 16:28, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

:How does one make a sub-page? --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 18:04, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

::Simply have a "secrets" page linking from the main page somewhere, perhaps under the heading of "extra info." Then the subpage can be something like Article Name/Secrets. Or something similar. Just a suggestion.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 20:56, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

::Yup, it's just like subfolders in Windows. [[Dummy Article]] would have a subpage [[Dummy Article/Secrets]]. The reason I'm bringing this up now is that I'm running across some articles written in the last month or two that include what look like quest walkthroughs. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 13:28, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

:Okay, I agree with Farman's original idea for our policy and I think the solution for posting secrets as a subpage is good, though I do have one additional suggestion. Although it may be a hokey old web design trick, we could just make the secret text the same as the background color and that way the secret text could remain in its appropriate place in the article. Let's finish up this discussion and get this policy posted in our help section and wherever else it needs to be. --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 05:32, 5 November 2007 (CST)

'''Templates/Infoboxes for IG Secrets'''

Hi, I'm new, but I have some thoughts on how to solve this:

One step might be to create templates for IG Secrets. To me there seems to be a couple things players would like to know:

# That a quest/puzzle exists
# The guild, race or level for whom the quest/puzzle applies
# In-game locations for background information, such as books, NPCs and areas
# Solutions (spoilers)

The first three should be on one page, the fourth on another.

A great example of this is the [[Dark Familiar Quest]]. A couple years ago I thought the Sanrisi trees in Riverhaven and Dirge looked interesting. My Ranger spent days puzzling over them, even figured out part of the quest. Eventually I mentioned it to another player who said, "oh, that's a Warrior Mage thing." I was no end of annoyed.

I would be more than willing to help out editing and writing articles to help other players avoid this in the future. I would suggest a template for puzzle/quest articles:

''The following article contains information about a quest, puzzle or in-game secret. Please review Elanthipedia's policy on [[In-game Secrets]] before editing this article.''

An infobox on the page would describe to whom the quest applies:

{| border="1"
|+ Quest Prerequisites
! Guilds
| Warrior Mage
|-
! Races
|All
|-
! Circle
|20+
|}

Please let me know any comments or questions. [[User:RCanine|RCanine]] 19:36, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

== Posting Policy in general ==

Actually, I think it would be a good idea to draft a simple posting policy to cover a few basic things:

# secrets policy
# language/respect for fellow posters etc.
# opinion/commentary vs. facts (akin to wikipedia's NPOV?)
# copyrighted material

Any other thoughts? I'm hoping this can be something pretty simple and casual as opposed to a huge legal document, and have a prominent link on the main page. Growth has been slowing down a little here lately but I still think it would be useful to have a clear posting guideline while Elanthipedia is still relatively new. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 13:28, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

== Script articles ==

I think we need a guideline for how to post scripts.

The problem is that current practice seems to be to post the script with the article title equal to the script name. This can be confusing since there's nothing in the article title that indicates that it's a script, and the potential for conflicts with other article types exists, especially as more and more scripts get posted.

I can see a few ways to approach this, and I'm not sure which is best:

*Put script articles as sub-articles of the main [[Scripts]] page, eg "Scripts/AScript". My gut feeling on this is that it doesn't go far enough.
*Put scripts in User space under the author of the script, eg "User:Farman/Scripts/Empathy". The benefit here is that indication of authorship is preserved, however should an account be deleted the scripts would be lost.
*Make a new namespace '''Scripts''' eg "Scripts:Scriptname". I think this is the cleanest way to do it but most people will have a hard time searching in anything but the main space.
*Put '''(script)''' after the script title, eg "Script (script)". I don't think this is a good idea since it doesn't go far enough in segregating script articles, but it is an option.
*Keep all scripts off-site, and link to the external page. The most severe policy, but it has the benefit of preserving a script author's code, which would otherwise be subject to editing as any other wiki article.

Any thoughts? --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 14:29, 4 November 2007 (CST)

:Of those options my favorite by far is to add "(script)" to the article title. All the other ideas were good, but each of them also had a fatal flaw which was accurately described. I think the most important thing is that it be easy for people to post their scripts (and easy to find), so doing the subcategory, User namespace, or off-site are all out of the question. I vote "(script)" --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 05:26, 5 November 2007 (CST)

:I guess allowing the upload of .cmd files would be out of the question too? I think that would be easiest, especial for script users. Being able to download the file instead of copy/paste and creating a new script... just the opinion of a tired empath taking another long walkabout from Elanthia.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 09:03, 5 November 2007 (CST)

::It may be unwise to allow people to upload .cmd files because if someone decides to add something malicious that we don't catch others might download it thinking that since it comes from Elanthipedia it must be safe. --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 10:27, 5 November 2007 (CST)

:::True. My trusting nature still has trouble understanding why anyone would do such a think in the first place. Oh well.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 12:46, 5 November 2007 (CST)

Kraelyst, you raise a very good point, but there's nothing to stop someone from posting a malicious file right now (unless there is some kind of AV software running on the server, which would make a lot of sense). And it adds another reason to why I think we need to hash out all of our policies a bit more completely. Given the open collaboration nature of a wiki I would expect there to be something stating the owners and sysops aren't responsible for the content posted on the site, since it's impossible to police what people post, instantly and with 100% infallibility. Of course such malicious files should be removed as soon as they are detected, but that won't eliminate the possibility that someone could be victimized by it before that happens.

Anyway I've always felt a bit conflicted about scripts on Elanthipedia. It feels to me that they aren't really in the core mission of the site, since scripts aren't a part of DR itself. They're important though and I do think we should have them here if people want to post them, which it seems they do. But while you can assess the accuracy and completeness of an article about Vorclaf, or Khri, for example, you can't do the same for a script since they are entirely subjective and user-created. And there are unlimited variations possible for scripts that achieve the same essential end. That's why I'm hesitant to just stick '''(script)''' after the name, it's very possible to end up with 50 '''Origami (script)''' articles and who is to say which one is the best? Not to mention the fact that each one might run on a different FE and there'd be a need to organize them that way. '''Origami (script-SF)''', '''Origami (script-Wizard)''', '''Origami (script-Genie), '''etc etc etc.

The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards having them in the user space of the person who posts it, or keeping the code offsite. I know that the latter is what I would want to do for any of my own scripts I'd put here, to protect the code. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 00:12, 6 November 2007 (CST)

==Personal and vanity topics==
If there is a discussion on this elsewhere or an already-existing policy by all means point me to it.

There should be a hardline policy on posting vanity pages and personal topics anywhere but in your own namespace. I just got finished moving two "proposal" pages with little to no bearing on actual game lore or mechanics into the creator's namespace, and it occurs to me that the more popular Elanthipedia gets the more stuff like this will pop up.

I also have concerns for adding vanity to pages. The biggest risk I think is pages on things like orders or militias; I don't think pages like this should turn into platforms from which to sell themselves. They should contain factual information about the orders, links to websites, and the names of the leaders, but not big sections on why they are the best or most awesome and why you should join now and get a free cookie.

That's pretty much it, was wondering what other people would think of that. [[User:Reene|Reene]] 15:43, 11 November 2007 (CST) (reposted from [[Elanthipedia Talk:Policy]])

:I agree almost completely. On principle I think Elanthipedia's main article space should be NPOV and informational, with as little subjective content as possible. But I go back and forth about how hardcore to be in terms of enforcing policies like that. We are such a small site, with such a small number of registered users (and even tinier number of active editors), that being too strict about it could alienate some people. And if the community consensus is to include such content, then so be it (although I suspect this is not the case). On the other hand, it seems that many users here are new to wiki's in general and staking out policies like this would set a good example and a firm foundation for future growth. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 11:57, 12 November 2007 (CST)

Ok I think we need to put something about this in our policy section. Let me know what you think of this...

<blockquote>All articles at Elanthipedia are to be written in the Neutral Point of View (NPOV). This means that they are written without any sort of bias or subjective language. In addition to this, articles about history, NPCs, and other "in-character" topics, should maintain an In-Character Point of View (ICPOV). That is, they should be written as if by a character in Elanthia, perhaps not necessarily "your" character, but keeping OOC (out-of-character) references to a minimum. If the article is to have any sort of out of game references, please insert a section titled OOC at the bottom of the article with these notes, or keep the discussion to the article's talk page.
 
By putting forth these style rules, we are committed to keeping an unbiased index of DragonRealms information which will be useful to all players. Any questions can be directed to the policy section of our Town Green.</blockquote>
Feel free to comment/add other statements you think will make our point clearer to the average contributor.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 18:38, 18 November 2007 (CST)

''I actually don't agree with or else I don't understand the concept of having in-character articles. Does this mean people shouldn't use section tags like "Appearance" or "Conversation Responses"? For example, I just added a lot to the article [[Daralaendra Suanealaena]] and don't see how that could be made "in character" without making the information less organized and therefore less useful. --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 20:49, 18 November 2007 (CST)''

:I don't agree with the part about an ICPOV requirement for certain articles. NPOV means ''no'' character at all, that articles are written with as little "personality" as is possible, and I'd much prefer that. I shudder to consider reading articles written in a "tisnae" dialect or worse. And Kraelyst's example is a good one; this would limit the kinds of information we could add to these articles. I can imagine adding info relating to game mechanics and behind-the-scenes stuff, but I personally would find that interesting reading in an article about, say, the history of the Dragon Priests, providing the article were well written, researched, and organized. 
:In any case, I don't think ICPOV is necessary to limit OOC info. For the kind of articles you're talking about, I don't think there's much OOC stuff to add. Anything such as commentary, opinion, predictions on future events, or the like wouldn't be NPOV in the first place and wouldn't be appropriate in a main article anyway. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 22:01, 18 November 2007 (CST)
::I didn't in any way mean that they had to be written in dialect, I just meant... oh forget it. We'll just word it to be strictly NPOV and keeping opinions to the talk pages.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 22:08, 18 November 2007 (CST)

==What is the DR Wiki? Issues concerning privacy, editing policy, and the boundary between IG/OOC==

There is a really interesting discussion going on right now on the [[Talk:Natashya]] page regarding the inclusion of a player character's name in connection with a particular in-game event. I think it touches on a number of issues about the DR Wiki that haven't really been sorted out yet, but which I think merit serious discussion. I would highly recommend reading the linked page before continuing on...

Note: I don't have any connection to the event, player characters involved in the event, or Wiki users involved in the article about the event. Furthermore, I'm not particularly interested in the edits that have been made to the [[Natashya]] article. I am, however, very interested in how we think about and use the DR Wiki in a broad sense.

I think part of the reason why people might be sensitive to what is posted on the DR Wiki is because it is not clear how the information here will be used. Is the DR Wiki IG or OOC? The NPOV policy suggets OOC status, but much of what is here could be considered IG background information which characters can reasonably be expected to know. How should the DR Wiki be used? Furthermore, how is it actually used? My guess is that the answer to the latter question will trump the answer to the former.

Let's consider a few questions, moving from specific to general: if a player requests that their character's name not be mentioned on the Wiki, when should that request be honored? What reasons are legitimate for removing a player character's name? When is it legitimate to remove any sort of information from the Wiki?

Here are a few possible scenarios to consider:

* A player character was centrally and publicly involved in an event. The DR Wiki mentions the player character's involvement in the event. The player would prefer that the player character not be mentioned.

* Same as above, but the player character's involvement was not generally public. (Of course, where is the line between public and private? A substantial portion of the DR-playing community likely doesn't know who [[Lanival]] is, much less who did what in some event)

* A player character participates in an event and later adds information about that event to the DR Wiki. The GM involved requests that the information be removed because it is (part of a secret event/is part of a game secret, such as how to join the Thieves' guild/annoying).

* An article mentions a player character in a negative light. The player would prefer that this information be removed.

* An event (GM-run or otherwise) occurs about which there is substantial debate as to what actually happened. Players request the exclusion of particular information which does not support their interpretation of events.

I can imagine more scenarios, and I suspect others can imagine many more. As an encyclopedia, including information should be, as a general principle, a good thing. That said, however, there are cases where inclusion of particular information may not serve the goal of being a good encyclopedia. Currently, I don't know that there is any consensus on how these cases should be handled. I think talking about these scenarios (or others) can be useful, so long as we keep in mind that the goal of figuring out general rules for inclusion/exclusion of information from the DR Wiki. --[[User:Basselope|Basselope]] 23:04, 29 November 2007 (CST)
:I'm not going to comment on all your scenarios right now, mostly because it's late and I'm not thinking as clearly as I could be. However, I would hope that Elanthipedia (or as you called it by its former name DRWik) would be used OOCly. Much like information gleaned on the forums or other such venues. Unless specifically stated, IMO, articles much like the [[Natashya]] article are for background and informative purposes only. Most of the information can (read: '''should''') be available to all players if they care to look for it. In that vein, all RP should be available to all players if they care to try to join in on events. That brings me to a question... what exactly would you define as a "secret" event? We all pay to play this game, and no participation rights should be held from anyone if they put forth the effort to get to know the plot and RP with it. But I digress...

:I really would have liked to know the user's reasons for not wanting his/her name mentioned in the article you cited, besides just "not wanting" the name mentioned. It would have been nice, and would help in this discussion. Like I said on the talk page, I'm not familiar with the events enough to know the extent of their involvement. ... And now I've drawn a blank as to where I was going with this. Will post again tomorrow. --[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 23:31, 29 November 2007 (CST)

I am of the opinion that all information should be shared, as it isn't an IC venue. If people take it in game, well they're probably not worthy of your (general) time. I understand that some people may not want what their character is up to revealed, but having thought long and hard about it (since my character has been involved in shady dealings in the past) it is the truth, and as long as it was presented in as unbiased a way as possible I could deal with it. Clearly not everyone will feel this way, but I think in order to maintain the wikiness and usefulness of the Elanthipedia it should be that way. Perhaps disclaimers reminding people that the information is not IC and should probably not be taken as such? Editing this a bit, because I don't think I was clear. There are things that obviously, from here your character would and (likely should) know. History, general events. It's obviously up to each use to make the call on what they would conceivably know. I lost my train of thought with this, but I hope someone gets what I'm trying to say. --[[User:Ysselt|Ysselt]] 15:14, 30 November 2007 (CST)

As one of the people mentioned in the article I wish my name removed as well as all of the other player character names unless they specifically grant the author the right to include it. Part of roleplaying in DragonRealms as a darker, or even good guy, is hiding the morally gray and/or terrible things that you do. These actions effect the story and remain quiet, yet the main points are still available for Joe Bob from the wider pool of knowledge.

You've all cited that information pulled from non-game sources is OOC, but you have to realize the fallacy. All it takes is one person to mention something, then their friend knows it, and then their friends friends knows it. Suddenly everyone through in game sources has detailed information that originally was not available to the public and there is no turning this back. If this is going to turn into a freedom of information discussion in roleplay then so be it. I am of the opinion that those who seek something out get the information and involvement that they desire (at least with me) if they make an attempt. It comes down to those who I am not familiar with and that know the actions of my character fill me with a sense of privacy invasion.

Reading through the article, the first sentence under "The Triad" section aptly describes the acts of the individuals that Natashya associated with and conjures all of the standard stereotypes in my mind. Going beyond that and naming names does nothing to further the article except to make it more factually correct at the expense of those involved. --[[User:Maje|Maje]] 03:22, 1 December 2007 (CST)

As I explained to Naeya, part of my enjoyment from participating in events is how I choose to divulge my experience to others. I like having a sense of ownership over my character's actions, and how I choose to share information about her interactions OOCly. As this is the internet, there are obviously places in which I have no control over where information is posted about my character. However, the wiki format of Elanthipedia does allow me some control, and I choose to take advantage of it.

As far as the Natashya event is concerned, I find that Basselope accurately described my involvement: '''"A player character was centrally and publicly involved in an event ... but the player character's involvement was not generally public."''' Due to the nature of my character's profession and various affiliations, knowledge of her involvement with Natashya was limited to few, very specific individuals. There was no indication at the time of my involvement (nor during the article's authorship) that my actions in game would later be reproduced in an OOC format such as Elanthipedia. If I had known, perhaps I would have been more selective with whom I was sharing information.

Naeya wrote, ''"That brings me to a question... what exactly would you define as a "secret" event? We all pay to play this game, and no participation rights should be held from anyone if they put forth the effort to get to know the plot and RP with it."'' I agree, in general. However, knowing the plot OOCly does not equal knowing the plot ICly. Even with all the claims that this is an OOC forum, I am perhaps just too pessimistic to have such an outlook. If anything, this experience has taught me to be '''MORE''' wary of revealing information than actually sharing it.--[[User:Pythea|Pythea]] 04:38, 1 December 2007 (CST)

I disagree that people involved in events should necessarily have control over whether their character names appear on the event pages or not. As long as the information is neutral and objective --which is how the Natashya page seemed--, I don't see a problem. Otherwise, we'd have to allow, say, Pathian, to censor MWP pages if he no longer wanted to be known as Tethia's parent for one reason or another. Yes, I'm aware that's a stretch.

The only reason I could see justification for it would be that the event in question is actively being continued. From what I've understood, it has concluded for the most part.--[[User:Aetherie|Aetherie]] 05:49, 1 December 2007 (CST)

The point is not whether the writing is neutral or objective. The point is that as a member of Elanthipedia, I feel I should have the right to choose where my character's name is placed and where it isn't. A tasteful example of how an event can be summarized is the page on [[Kalag The Black]]. No specific PCs were mentioned, other than Enef, because the progression of the story did not require specific names. I feel the Natashya storyline can be adequately summarized in a similar way, but the author chooses to disregard the alternative to her version, claiming it will be inaccurate otherwise.

Also, while the Natashya event has slowed down in recent weeks, it has not concluded to my understanding and awareness of events.--[[User:Pythea|Pythea]] 06:56, 1 December 2007 (CST)

:Really interesting discussion, and here's my two cents. I should also state that I wasn't involved in the Natashya event thread and still know almost nothing about it:

:We are not a strict encyclopedia like Wikipedia is. Given the much smaller community and much smaller scope, requirements of non-original research and citability aren't as important here. I think we should be less formal than that, which unfortunately means there will necessarily be a bit more messiness. I don't think there's any way to prevent this kind of dust-up from occuring from time to time, but I personally don't mind that, as long as we can all walk away satisfied that things were done fairly.

:I do agree that Elanthipedia should be entirely OOC. '''People''' come here to learn about DR the game, and everything within it (or around it, behind it) that interests them, not their character.

:To the point at hand: the issue of a player wanting their name removed from a history article. There are two competing interests at play, 1) maximum accuracy, and 2) personal wishes of the person in question.

:While I believe Elanthipedia should be as accurate and complete as possible, my first impulse is to be generous. If someone wants their name removed, I would call that a personal prerogative, and acquiesce. To do otherwise is to be unkind, and can lead to bad feelings. '''HOWEVER''' I believe that right has limits. If the player's involvement was truly central to the event in question, and he/she held a very public role in it, to the extent that removing his/her name would significantly reduce the value of the article about it, then the name should stand. If the involvement was secret or behind-the-scenes, and the player wishes his/her name not to be included, it should be removed.

:I disagree with the idea that the default position should be not to include names unless permission is previously and expressly granted, since IMO that is an unreasonable hurdle to put in front of a good-faith editor. That policy would stifle contributions unduly.

:Also along those lines, I think it's important to remember that DR is a community game. It's impossible to fully control how you are perceived, and it's impossible to prevent other people from talking about you. Elanthipedia isn't the venue to try and extend that control, either. You have the right to remove your name everywhere it appears, but other people have the equal right to replace it.

:So in a nutshell this is what I propose:

:*Whether or not to name players involved in events should be based on how public their involvement was, with the bias towards maintaining a player's privacy.
:*Editors should respect a player's wishes who does not want his/her character's name included.
:*If however that player played such a central and public role that exclusion of his/her identity would make the article significantly less meaningful, then the name should stand.

:Now to respond to some of Basselope's thoughts:

:"An article mentions a player character in a negative light." --Ideally, the article will neither be positive or negative, it should be neutral and factual. If an article is negative, that's bias and it should be rewritten for a more neutral and reportorial tone.

:"Players request the exclusion of particular information which does not support their interpretation of events." -- Again, in this case it sounds like the original material is based on opinion, and thus not neutral enough. I would recommend a section or subarticle that allows inclusion of multiple perspectives. Removing another editor's contributions because you disagree with it ''but cannot factually disprove it'' is censorship. If something is '''clearly''' and '''demonstrably''' false then it should be removed, with a note on the edit and an explanation on the talk page.

:"A player character participates in an event and later adds information about that event to the DR Wiki. The GM involved requests that the information be removed because it is (part of a secret event/is part of a game secret, such as how to join the Thieves' guild/annoying). --GM involvement on the wiki has been non-existent (at least, none under any GM names that I am aware of), and a GM user holds no special ability to dictate content here above the ability of other users. Nor does an admin, for that matter. In this case, I think the information should be handled like we handle any other in-game secret.

: --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 17:34, 1 December 2007 (CST)
:::I'll be brief, "fully agreed". and in the case of edit-wars we should "of course" protect the pages and an admin/community member could work with the conflicting sides to help find a happy medium. (edit wars are bad). --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 00:32, 2 December 2007 (CST)
::Would it be unfair to request that if someone wants their name removed (and/or removes it themselves ahead of time), that they post in the talk page with a reason why? --[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 17:55, 1 December 2007 (CST)
:::I would say in the comment and/or the Talk page could be useful (or even required). But I do have to wonder how often that would actually be done, "My name was included in the '''Mass Murderers in the Sorrow War''' article, but I only killed two or three people, so I was not a real mass murderer...." is not going to really get typed in its talk page, if they don't want to be associated with that article at all. (To use a far-fetched example) --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 00:32, 2 December 2007 (CST)

My name got mentioned so I thought I would weigh in on the topic. I don't feel I would have the right to censor myself from the wiki in regards to my role in the Mirror Wraith Prophecy. It's an event where others were involved and there were many witnesses. If you see or know about something in game I say it's absolutely fair to post about it here...whether I may want it told or not. I think the Natashaya event falls under the same light. If it's relatively known to be factual by several individuals in game then sure, feel free to post it up here as valuable information.

--[[User:Pathian|Pathian]] 20:50, 1 December 2007 (CST)

:I agree here --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 00:32, 2 December 2007 (CST)

::Just one more thing ;-) ... For literally years the DR community was held to "IC-ok" news standards which were used by MANY people, "The Wrens Nest", which I repeatedly heard of people as using in an IC way, (as the site was designed to let you refer to the info ICly). All the knowledge on events etc there, was based on names known, not "Oooo this guys an NPC" or "well player-character Callek stood up to the gorbesh in the lute room". it was simply "Wren did..." etc. And for that matter, I believe many people thought Wren was a real player character (having been a part of the Bard guild for a while before being in that event). So sometimes the line between "player character" and "GMNPC" can be quite thin. --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 00:32, 2 December 2007 (CST)

I echo Pathian's sentiments. As far as I'm concerned this is a completely OOC venture. I've consulted it as such, and have written what little I have with that in mind. To subject this place to the typical backbiting, social proxy-wars, and moronic attempts at personal sabotage that so thoroughly permeate the greater events community would be a great disservice. Allowing people to patrol and censor the content here to further their wider strategy toward whatever end they're seeking from or in DR would be a bad move. --[[User:Urwin|Urwin]]

Wow! Lots of interesting stuff here since I last posted. A few thoughts (brief because I accidentally deleted my first version):

1) Pythea asks about how to determine how secret an event is. One possible brief definition: not public. But I think that in the sentences immediately before asking that question, she provides a good description for secret: "my character's profession and various affiliations, knowledge of her involvement with Natashya was limited to few, very specific individuals. There was no indication at the time of my involvement (nor during the article's authorship) that my actions in game would later be reproduced in an OOC format such as Elanthipedia." I think one weakness of this description, though, is that it concerns secrecy at the time the event occurs, not at some later point. Can others come up with a better definition?

2) Farman notes that my hypothetical "article that mentions a character in a negative light" is impossible in the case of an article written from NPOV. I'd like to modify what I wrote earlier, to be "an article that mentions actions a character took which would be viewed negatively by most." In this case, there is a real threat to particular kinds of roleplaying if people take OOC information into the game.

3) Callek brings up some great stuff about the Wren's Nest. It's too bad people don't use it more. That said, I'm thinking about how the Wren's Nest (or other quasi-IC venues) should be treated with respect to secrecy. What happens if somebody spills the beans about a secret event at the Wren's Nest, in the play.net IC forums, or just yells about it in front of the bank for a week?

4) Naeya makes a good suggestion that players wanting information excluded should post to the relevant discussion page. This way, the entire community can reach a consensus on the issue rather than a single editor making that decision, potentially from a position of ignorance about the event/character(s) involved. So, I've modified Farman's (very nice) proposed policies:

:*A player wishing to have information about a character excluded should express that desire in the relevant discussion page(s).
:*The player's wishes for privacy should be weighed against how public and significant the character's involvement was.
:*Where reasonable, the player's wishes should be granted.
:*If however that player played such a central and public role that exclusion of his/her identity would make the article significantly less meaningful, then the name should stand.

How does that sound? I think there is still a missing piece with the issue of 'secret', but I think we are making valuable progress towards some sort of policy on when and why to exclude information from the DR Wiki. Let's keep the thoughts coming. --[[User:Basselope|Basselope]] 03:36, 2 December 2007 (CST)

My thoughts.

Elanthipedia is a resource with the potential to make the game world a richer place for everyone who uses it by serving as a repository of background information. For it to fulfill that potential and to be true to the wiki concept, its articles have to be complete to the extent possible and factually correct to the extent they can be checked. When an article is about a historical event, the who, what, why, when and where all need to be addressed as accurately as possible. An article where names have been withheld is no longer a complete or factually correct article, and that betrays the wiki concept and does a disservice to Elanthipedia's readers.

Some people have claimed they have a privacy right and that their right to privacy entitles them to control any information on this wiki that relates to them. I think this is a fallacy. Where events are concerned, they have become part of DR's ongoing story and their deeds or words are part of the historical record. Elanthipedia's primary purpose is to make that historical record accessible, so its first duty must be to correctly representing the events.

If Elanthipedia took the position that its first duty should be to protecting privacy rights, or that privacy rights should be respected "whenever possible", its mission would become hopelessly mired in the self-interests of reader-editors. Elanthipedia would become a propaganda page, and that would destroy its value as a repository of information.

Some people have argued that information should be redacted or suppressed because its release might cause them to come to harm or damage their reputations. This is a valid concern. Elanthipedia moderators should weigh the interest of preserving the historical record against the potential of harming an individual. However, this should be a strict test. If the information is part of the historical record - that is, it relates to Events - the information should be released because Elanthipedia's first duty is to preserving the historical record. If the information is strictly personal, then the information should be suppressed only if the subject requesting the suppression can demonstrate that its release would do them material harm.

Are any events secret? IC, yes. OOC, no. All events are part of the historical record. No event should be censored from Elanthipedia because it is secret, because Elanthipedia is an OOC resource and there are no OOC secret events.

Elanthipedia is particularly important for preserving information about events that are IG secrets. By definition, no one can find out about those events because the people who are involved don't talk about them IG. Anyone who knows to ask someone about the secret event will already know about the event, and hence not have to ask. Those events are nonetheless part of the historical record and constitute meaningful background information that players (not to say their characters) have a right know about.

To summarize my thoughts, I believe that Elanthipedia's primary mission is to be a repository of DR lore. To function in that capacity its articles must be as complete as possible and factually correct to the extent that they can be checked. Edits to articles should be allowed only when they further the goal of making an article more complete or they correct facts. No article should be suppressed unless it is purely personal and demonstrably harmful to the subject of the article.

Objectivity and completeness are what make Elanthipedia a resource worth using. I believe the moderators should definitely define a process to arbitrate disputes that arise over matters of fact. Defining processes that attempt to accomodate personal preferences for secrecy defeats the Elanthipedia concept and compromises the virtues that make Elanthipedia valuable.--[[User:Mazrian|Mazrian]] 10:19, 2 December 2007 (CST)

:I agree that the first principle is to accurately record useful information pertaining to DR, but that does not mean that other considerations must ''always'' be severely subjugated to that and ''always'' take the back seat. There is a balance that must be reached. I believe that the principle behind allowing personal requests such as we are discussing is to support building the community and maintain good will among and between different editors. If we took a draconian policy of "always maximum information about everything, all else be damned" without at least ''considering'' personal exceptions such as this, I think we would quickly find that noone will want to contribute. This is why NPOV is so important, to ''try'' and stay above the drama (it's not always possible, I know). When articles include information about active player characters, it is hard to maintain neutrality since personalities and relationships get involved. That is why I think we should lean towards respecting personal wishes, in accordance with the proposed policy. I don't mind sacrificing a little bit of accuracy or completeness if the alternative means endless edit wars and alienating people. Note that I said '''a little bit''' of accuracy. IMO privacy requests ''should'' be respected whenever possible, and I don't think doing so will destroy the wiki, on the contrary I believe that it will help preserve it. "Whenever possible" doesn't mean "always" and it doesn't mean "never".

:I think we're all in basic agreement here, and it seems that the real question is about exactly where to draw the line, not whether or it should be drawn at all. I think that's always going to come down to a judgment call on the part of editors, and the personal wishes of the people cited. In other words, it's always going to be messy. I don't mind that, either. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 12:17, 2 December 2007 (CST)

Those are all great points, Farman. Collaboration is the strength of a wiki format, so a policy that encourages collaboration is ideal. However, the solution to the problem of today is to take a principled stand that will solidify the wiki's credibility tomorrow and thereafter.

If you go along with personal requests in this case, you will only have peace until someone else with a self-interest in changing history decides to initiate an edit war and claim a personal exemption. You will not be able to maintain NPOV, because the final forms of all your articles will have to conform to the POV of the most committed self-interested editor.

Taking the principled stand is the only way to rise above the drama you say you want to avoid.

If you take a principled stand and disallow personal exemptions except for purely personal information that is harmful, you may lose some of the people who are clamoring for exemptions now, true. However, those are short-term consequences and I submit that the people clamouring for censorship are precisely the people who are not interested in sharing information in a public forum anyway. There is nothing gained from trying to keep them in the community except that they will stop fussing in the short term.

However, if you stand on principles, people will accept the terms of collaboration on the wiki and will understand the principles behind those terms. You will gain contributors, not lose them! A principled policy is precisely designed to protect contributors by shielding them from self-interested censorship.

If you want to rise above the drama, preserve NPOV and grow the community, the right choice is to stand on principle and not do the expediant thing. --[[User:Mazrian|Mazrian]] 13:13, 2 December 2007 (CST)

:Another point I just thought of, that I haven't seen expressed... The "trading" situation. Now, officially trading characters among players is against the Terms of Service, but it is done, and has been done. I can see points for both sides of this argument for people who do trade, which are slightly orthogonal to the actual points brought up thus far.
:;pro-character names in articles
::When taking control of your newly traded/purchases character, you can learn about key historical events your '''character''' was part of, and roleplay according to the characters history. Which as with any character you have, will be influenced by your own personality, likes, and dislikes.
:;anti-character names in articles
::A '''character''' you are now taking control of has done some very shady things in the past as far as events. These things could very well be why the person wanted to sell the character to begin with, or well.. maybe not. But either way, you consider yourself a caring and generous person and intended to use your new (higher-level) '''character''' that way, but don't want his/her past actions known to the world.
:While I can understand the reasoning against it as articulated here, I'd be more apt to ask people who '''do''' trade to find an IC explanation for their character/behavior change rather than simply go with 'omission' of facts/information. --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 16:47, 2 December 2007 (CST)

:Another issue in this situation is primary versus secondary or further removed source. I believe that primary sources SHOULD get the benefit out of the doubt at least initially on accuracy in an article. When one or more primary sources disagree with a secondary source, as is happening in this article, I believe the primary source should be followed unless some type of overwhelming evidence or a pattern of behavior emerges which would call this primary source into question. --[[User:Navak|Navak]] 19:17, 2 December 2007 (CST)

Point of clarification. The poster of the Natashya article is a primary source for most of it, or referred to a primary source for the information.--[[User:Mazrian|Mazrian]] 21:28, 2 December 2007 (CST)

If the poster is referring to a primary source, the poster isn't a primary source. Some of the issues held in contention are those presented by secondary or further removed sources versus a primary source. --[[User:Navak|Navak]] 21:45, 2 December 2007 (CST)

Navak, you're pushing a weak point. She was present for a lot of the events she's talking about and no one is really disputing the facts of the matter.--[[User:Mazrian|Mazrian]] 21:51, 2 December 2007 (CST)

:'''I completely agree with Farman.''' Although this is a Wiki and we want as much comprehensive information as possible, we should not be so strict as to disregard people's wishes about their own characters' names. I think the three governing rules Farman suggested were dead on when considering when to allow a person to remove their own character's name from an article:
:*Whether or not to name players involved in events should be based on how public their involvement was, with the bias towards maintaining a player's privacy.
:*Editors should respect a player's wishes who does not want his/her character's name included.
:*If however that player played such a central and public role that exclusion of his/her identity would make the article significantly less meaningful, then the name should stand.
:My only caveat is that the first point makes it sound like posters should consider these things ''prior'' to posting - I would generally say post now and if there is a problem then follow the above mentioned guidelines. What this means to the current situation is that the names of Maje and Pythea are not so central to the plot that leaving them out effects any understanding of the plot whatsoever... so leave their names out! 
:''p.s.'' I think since this discussion is so long we should move it to its own subpage --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 20:16, 3 December 2007 (CST)

I have held off on contributing my two cents in favor letting people who aren't directly involved in the spawning conflict have their say. It's my work; of course I'll defend it. So I won't respond here to the vast amounts of personal criticism this issue has spawned, nor will I rehash the arguments that should be taking place on that article's talk page here. I will address the more general issues of secrecy and privacy, though, and I will try to choose my words carefully.

On the most basic level, I feel these terms are too subjective and subject to wild and unreasonable interpretation and application. First, to the general ideas of publicity and secrecy - how do you define it? What is considered "too" secret to include with regards to events or characters? The response to this question that rolls off the tongue of most of the people on this page is "public knowledge" - what is reasonable for your average Joe to know about. Yet if that became our threshold for withholding information, the vast majority of the [[Kalag The Black]] article should and must be culled in the interests of secrecy. The [[Satarra]] article should very well be utterly scrapped as well, as shockingly few even among Thieves know that she is an Enforcer (and her public identity, oddly enough, isn't mentioned at all there). Indeed, the vast majority of the [[Natashya]] article itself would have to be completely removed in favor of painting a portrait of only her public facade and nothing else.

Directly following this and using these same claims of "public knowledge" as support, we have the errant claims of individual privacy, the insistence of freedom from accountability and documentation regardless of involvement and impact, and proclamations of complete and total creative ownership of any documentation regarding either character or their actions akin to the woes of a plagiarized copyright holder. If you took this privacy argument to the same sort of logical conclusion as the secrecy argument, you would be left with the distinct possibility of being forced to tell the story of [[Tethia]]'s conception without mentioning [[Pathian]], the tale of [[Velmix]] without giving regards to [[Magmus]], or the incident of [[Arilana]]'s assassination and second miscarriage without implicating [[Enef]] or [[Meanne]]. You may call it the right of the player to erase their character's impact on the course of our setting's history and flow of cause and effect, but to do so deprives us of valuable context and even more valuable understanding of what truly happened and why it happened the way it did. You destroy and clip away and remove, and in doing so leave holes which spawn questions that may never be allowed to be answered, and in doing this you diminish everything that may rely on the story you are trying to tell.

Put plainly, events in DR are a strange and fickle thing to quantify. Their impact from the perspective of PCs and their involvement is undoubtedly significant yet largely undocumented and so often woefully underestimated in large part due to this same lack of documentation - which leads to the vicious cycle of secrecy and backbiting and which has likely lead us here today. Like it or loathe it though, those PCs ''choose'' (because yes, it is a choice, and to pretend it was thoughtlessly thrust upon them against their will is insulting to both the GMs and the participants) to go out of their way to participate in these events and in doing so alter the course of the event and indeed the playable history of the game. We exist in a game where every day we make choices that may conceivably negatively affect our character and how they may be perceived, and we are forced to live with these choices without anyone around to bail us out should it reach the ears of someone we don't want to know about it. Why should these events, which by definition are public in that they affect a greater number of people and are guided by the proverbial Hand of God, be any different? We are not, to be blunt for a moment, talking about something as ridiculous as who is text-fucking who here. We are talking about significant and lasting events that can have a huge impact on the entire greater scheme of things. The interwoven nature of most DR events makes this even more true.

The path of thoughtless censure some are asking for would be, quite frankly, unacceptable in the interests of sharing accurate and unbiased information, and I would hope that much is obvious. I do not believe any reasonable contributor to this wiki believes that this is the course of action we should be taking with regards to these articles. Yet that is what some people are proposing we do, without foresight or forethought to what precisely their proposals would actually mean. I don't mean this as an attack on the people suggesting it - it is, on the surface, a reasonable enough suggestion in the wake of undue discord. However, taken to its logical conclusion, with full knowledge that it ''would'' be misused and abused by those inspired by hubris, avarice, malice or ignorance, we can see that this is obviously not a productive solution to our problem, and does nothing but hurt the wiki and its casual users that just come here looking for answers.

Now, I realize I have been exceedingly verbose, and I thank those of you that have stuck with me so far. However, the simple fact is that there is no simple and easy solution, no all-encompassing policy that can be written to prevent vitriolic accusations and bad feelings. Indeed, as the wiki expands and has information added to it that may be distasteful to certain parties for whatever reason, these disputes will become more and more common, the claims and arguments at times more and more hysterical and defensive, and occasionally the information itself unverifiable beyond those who were specifically there to witness what happened (which I was, in this case, but that's neither here nor there). At the end of the day, the core user base of the wiki - those that have established themselves as valuable contributors and have added a great deal of content of their own volition - will have to accept, in the interests of completeness and accuracy, that there will be times when they simply have to do something that someone somewhere doesn't like, and write what they know to the best of their knowledge. I would ask, given this, that this same core established group of users be given the benefit of the doubt. Should Aetherie say a PC was central to the Dragon Priest crusade and that PC creates an account to purge any mention of them from those articles, we should side with Aetherie by default and enforce the will of the editor that is trying to expand upon the wiki, not diminish it. Without very good reasons offered for why, reasons beyond 'because I just don't want it there' or 'because it makes me look bad,' we should not allow people to cull or destroy pieces of the wiki. Factual accuracy is a valid concern and one that should be taken into consideration, but vanity or shame is not and should not be a force allowed to sway the balance.

That's about all I've got to add to this general issue. I will address a few odd and spurious claims regarding the Natashya article in particular on that article's talk page as well. I appreciate everyone that took the time to read all of that. :) [[User:Reene|Reene]] 03:49, 4 December 2007 (CST)

==Wiki vandalism==
Well, it looks like we've had our first few cases of vandalism over the past couple of days. Everything appears to be ok, though. A big thank you to the admins. One question, out of curiousity: is future vandalism by the responsible parties prevented by IP blocking? --[[User:Basselope|Basselope]] 00:41, 3 December 2007 (CST)
:It should be, yes. The violators are prevented from creating new accounts from that IP range. As for our policy about this type of vandalism, I tried to go with a warn first, ban second approach, and we see where that got us. From now on, it's 1 strike you're out with this kind of hateful language and pornographic material vandalism.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 01:04, 3 December 2007 (CST)
::Fully agreed, Naeya, and well handled. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 17:44, 5 December 2007 (CST)

elanthipedia:Town Green (policy)

2008-04-17T00:36:50Z

RCANINE: /* IG Secrets */

{{Towngreenpages|Policy discussion|This '''policy''' section of the Town Green is to discuss [[Elanthipedia:Policy|existing and proposed policies and guidelines]] here at Elanthipedia.}}

== New users with strange names ==

Four new users have been created within the last week with similarly weird, code-like names:

[[User:Gj0Vxn|Gj0Vxn]], [[User:LyuZsg|LyuZsg]], [[User:TycZzv|TycZzv]], and [[User:CpaPqe|CpaPqe]]. Seems kind of fishy to me. Is it possible to run an IP check on them and/or otherwise see whether they're legit or not? None have performed any edits yet. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 16:51, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

:If it becomes a problem we can utilize the captcha extension, and make new users enter a string. And/Or we can utilize SpamBlackList which protects us from malicious edits. --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 21:14, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

I noticed that too. We'll watch them.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 22:08, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

== IG Secrets ==

I think it would be useful to state the policy on revealing in-game secrets in articles. Please correct me or add to this if I am wrong.

* Posting in-game secrets or solutions to quests is discouraged on a main article page, as this might reveal the information to someone who came to the article seeking general info only.

A good way to segregate info on secrets is to make a sub-page off the main article. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 16:28, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

:How does one make a sub-page? --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 18:04, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

::Simply have a "secrets" page linking from the main page somewhere, perhaps under the heading of "extra info." Then the subpage can be something like Article Name/Secrets. Or something similar. Just a suggestion.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 20:56, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

::Yup, it's just like subfolders in Windows. [[Dummy Article]] would have a subpage [[Dummy Article/Secrets]]. The reason I'm bringing this up now is that I'm running across some articles written in the last month or two that include what look like quest walkthroughs. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 13:28, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

:Okay, I agree with Farman's original idea for our policy and I think the solution for posting secrets as a subpage is good, though I do have one additional suggestion. Although it may be a hokey old web design trick, we could just make the secret text the same as the background color and that way the secret text could remain in its appropriate place in the article. Let's finish up this discussion and get this policy posted in our help section and wherever else it needs to be. --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 05:32, 5 November 2007 (CST)

'''Templates/Infoboxes for IG Secrets'''

Hi, I'm new, but I have some thoughts on how to solve this:

One step might be to create templates for IG Secrets. To me there seems to be a couple things players would like to know:

# That a quest/puzzle exists
# The guild, race or level for whom the quest/puzzle applies
# In-game locations for background information, such as books, NPCs and areas
# Solutions (spoilers)

The first three should be on one page, the fourth on another.

A great example of this is the [[Dark Familiar Quest]]. A couple years ago I thought the Sanrisi trees in Riverhaven and Dirge looked interesting. My Ranger spent says puzzling over them, even figured out part of the quest. Eventually I mentioned it to another player who said, "oh, that's a Warrior Mage thing." I was no end of annoyed.

I would be more than willing to help out editing and writing articles to help other players avoid this in the future. I would suggest a template for puzzle/quest articles:

''The following article contains information about a quest, puzzle or in-game secret. Please review Elanthipedia's policy on [[In-game Secrets]] before editing this article.''

An infobox on the page would describe to whom the quest applies:

{| border="1"
|+ Quest Prerequisites
! Guilds
| Warrior Mage
|-
! Races
|All
|-
! Circle
|20+
|}

Please let me know any comments or questions. [[User:RCanine|RCanine]] 19:36, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

== Posting Policy in general ==

Actually, I think it would be a good idea to draft a simple posting policy to cover a few basic things:

# secrets policy
# language/respect for fellow posters etc.
# opinion/commentary vs. facts (akin to wikipedia's NPOV?)
# copyrighted material

Any other thoughts? I'm hoping this can be something pretty simple and casual as opposed to a huge legal document, and have a prominent link on the main page. Growth has been slowing down a little here lately but I still think it would be useful to have a clear posting guideline while Elanthipedia is still relatively new. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 13:28, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

== Script articles ==

I think we need a guideline for how to post scripts.

The problem is that current practice seems to be to post the script with the article title equal to the script name. This can be confusing since there's nothing in the article title that indicates that it's a script, and the potential for conflicts with other article types exists, especially as more and more scripts get posted.

I can see a few ways to approach this, and I'm not sure which is best:

*Put script articles as sub-articles of the main [[Scripts]] page, eg "Scripts/AScript". My gut feeling on this is that it doesn't go far enough.
*Put scripts in User space under the author of the script, eg "User:Farman/Scripts/Empathy". The benefit here is that indication of authorship is preserved, however should an account be deleted the scripts would be lost.
*Make a new namespace '''Scripts''' eg "Scripts:Scriptname". I think this is the cleanest way to do it but most people will have a hard time searching in anything but the main space.
*Put '''(script)''' after the script title, eg "Script (script)". I don't think this is a good idea since it doesn't go far enough in segregating script articles, but it is an option.
*Keep all scripts off-site, and link to the external page. The most severe policy, but it has the benefit of preserving a script author's code, which would otherwise be subject to editing as any other wiki article.

Any thoughts? --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 14:29, 4 November 2007 (CST)

:Of those options my favorite by far is to add "(script)" to the article title. All the other ideas were good, but each of them also had a fatal flaw which was accurately described. I think the most important thing is that it be easy for people to post their scripts (and easy to find), so doing the subcategory, User namespace, or off-site are all out of the question. I vote "(script)" --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 05:26, 5 November 2007 (CST)

:I guess allowing the upload of .cmd files would be out of the question too? I think that would be easiest, especial for script users. Being able to download the file instead of copy/paste and creating a new script... just the opinion of a tired empath taking another long walkabout from Elanthia.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 09:03, 5 November 2007 (CST)

::It may be unwise to allow people to upload .cmd files because if someone decides to add something malicious that we don't catch others might download it thinking that since it comes from Elanthipedia it must be safe. --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 10:27, 5 November 2007 (CST)

:::True. My trusting nature still has trouble understanding why anyone would do such a think in the first place. Oh well.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 12:46, 5 November 2007 (CST)

Kraelyst, you raise a very good point, but there's nothing to stop someone from posting a malicious file right now (unless there is some kind of AV software running on the server, which would make a lot of sense). And it adds another reason to why I think we need to hash out all of our policies a bit more completely. Given the open collaboration nature of a wiki I would expect there to be something stating the owners and sysops aren't responsible for the content posted on the site, since it's impossible to police what people post, instantly and with 100% infallibility. Of course such malicious files should be removed as soon as they are detected, but that won't eliminate the possibility that someone could be victimized by it before that happens.

Anyway I've always felt a bit conflicted about scripts on Elanthipedia. It feels to me that they aren't really in the core mission of the site, since scripts aren't a part of DR itself. They're important though and I do think we should have them here if people want to post them, which it seems they do. But while you can assess the accuracy and completeness of an article about Vorclaf, or Khri, for example, you can't do the same for a script since they are entirely subjective and user-created. And there are unlimited variations possible for scripts that achieve the same essential end. That's why I'm hesitant to just stick '''(script)''' after the name, it's very possible to end up with 50 '''Origami (script)''' articles and who is to say which one is the best? Not to mention the fact that each one might run on a different FE and there'd be a need to organize them that way. '''Origami (script-SF)''', '''Origami (script-Wizard)''', '''Origami (script-Genie), '''etc etc etc.

The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards having them in the user space of the person who posts it, or keeping the code offsite. I know that the latter is what I would want to do for any of my own scripts I'd put here, to protect the code. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 00:12, 6 November 2007 (CST)

==Personal and vanity topics==
If there is a discussion on this elsewhere or an already-existing policy by all means point me to it.

There should be a hardline policy on posting vanity pages and personal topics anywhere but in your own namespace. I just got finished moving two "proposal" pages with little to no bearing on actual game lore or mechanics into the creator's namespace, and it occurs to me that the more popular Elanthipedia gets the more stuff like this will pop up.

I also have concerns for adding vanity to pages. The biggest risk I think is pages on things like orders or militias; I don't think pages like this should turn into platforms from which to sell themselves. They should contain factual information about the orders, links to websites, and the names of the leaders, but not big sections on why they are the best or most awesome and why you should join now and get a free cookie.

That's pretty much it, was wondering what other people would think of that. [[User:Reene|Reene]] 15:43, 11 November 2007 (CST) (reposted from [[Elanthipedia Talk:Policy]])

:I agree almost completely. On principle I think Elanthipedia's main article space should be NPOV and informational, with as little subjective content as possible. But I go back and forth about how hardcore to be in terms of enforcing policies like that. We are such a small site, with such a small number of registered users (and even tinier number of active editors), that being too strict about it could alienate some people. And if the community consensus is to include such content, then so be it (although I suspect this is not the case). On the other hand, it seems that many users here are new to wiki's in general and staking out policies like this would set a good example and a firm foundation for future growth. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 11:57, 12 November 2007 (CST)

Ok I think we need to put something about this in our policy section. Let me know what you think of this...

<blockquote>All articles at Elanthipedia are to be written in the Neutral Point of View (NPOV). This means that they are written without any sort of bias or subjective language. In addition to this, articles about history, NPCs, and other "in-character" topics, should maintain an In-Character Point of View (ICPOV). That is, they should be written as if by a character in Elanthia, perhaps not necessarily "your" character, but keeping OOC (out-of-character) references to a minimum. If the article is to have any sort of out of game references, please insert a section titled OOC at the bottom of the article with these notes, or keep the discussion to the article's talk page.
 
By putting forth these style rules, we are committed to keeping an unbiased index of DragonRealms information which will be useful to all players. Any questions can be directed to the policy section of our Town Green.</blockquote>
Feel free to comment/add other statements you think will make our point clearer to the average contributor.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 18:38, 18 November 2007 (CST)

''I actually don't agree with or else I don't understand the concept of having in-character articles. Does this mean people shouldn't use section tags like "Appearance" or "Conversation Responses"? For example, I just added a lot to the article [[Daralaendra Suanealaena]] and don't see how that could be made "in character" without making the information less organized and therefore less useful. --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 20:49, 18 November 2007 (CST)''

:I don't agree with the part about an ICPOV requirement for certain articles. NPOV means ''no'' character at all, that articles are written with as little "personality" as is possible, and I'd much prefer that. I shudder to consider reading articles written in a "tisnae" dialect or worse. And Kraelyst's example is a good one; this would limit the kinds of information we could add to these articles. I can imagine adding info relating to game mechanics and behind-the-scenes stuff, but I personally would find that interesting reading in an article about, say, the history of the Dragon Priests, providing the article were well written, researched, and organized. 
:In any case, I don't think ICPOV is necessary to limit OOC info. For the kind of articles you're talking about, I don't think there's much OOC stuff to add. Anything such as commentary, opinion, predictions on future events, or the like wouldn't be NPOV in the first place and wouldn't be appropriate in a main article anyway. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 22:01, 18 November 2007 (CST)
::I didn't in any way mean that they had to be written in dialect, I just meant... oh forget it. We'll just word it to be strictly NPOV and keeping opinions to the talk pages.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 22:08, 18 November 2007 (CST)

==What is the DR Wiki? Issues concerning privacy, editing policy, and the boundary between IG/OOC==

There is a really interesting discussion going on right now on the [[Talk:Natashya]] page regarding the inclusion of a player character's name in connection with a particular in-game event. I think it touches on a number of issues about the DR Wiki that haven't really been sorted out yet, but which I think merit serious discussion. I would highly recommend reading the linked page before continuing on...

Note: I don't have any connection to the event, player characters involved in the event, or Wiki users involved in the article about the event. Furthermore, I'm not particularly interested in the edits that have been made to the [[Natashya]] article. I am, however, very interested in how we think about and use the DR Wiki in a broad sense.

I think part of the reason why people might be sensitive to what is posted on the DR Wiki is because it is not clear how the information here will be used. Is the DR Wiki IG or OOC? The NPOV policy suggets OOC status, but much of what is here could be considered IG background information which characters can reasonably be expected to know. How should the DR Wiki be used? Furthermore, how is it actually used? My guess is that the answer to the latter question will trump the answer to the former.

Let's consider a few questions, moving from specific to general: if a player requests that their character's name not be mentioned on the Wiki, when should that request be honored? What reasons are legitimate for removing a player character's name? When is it legitimate to remove any sort of information from the Wiki?

Here are a few possible scenarios to consider:

* A player character was centrally and publicly involved in an event. The DR Wiki mentions the player character's involvement in the event. The player would prefer that the player character not be mentioned.

* Same as above, but the player character's involvement was not generally public. (Of course, where is the line between public and private? A substantial portion of the DR-playing community likely doesn't know who [[Lanival]] is, much less who did what in some event)

* A player character participates in an event and later adds information about that event to the DR Wiki. The GM involved requests that the information be removed because it is (part of a secret event/is part of a game secret, such as how to join the Thieves' guild/annoying).

* An article mentions a player character in a negative light. The player would prefer that this information be removed.

* An event (GM-run or otherwise) occurs about which there is substantial debate as to what actually happened. Players request the exclusion of particular information which does not support their interpretation of events.

I can imagine more scenarios, and I suspect others can imagine many more. As an encyclopedia, including information should be, as a general principle, a good thing. That said, however, there are cases where inclusion of particular information may not serve the goal of being a good encyclopedia. Currently, I don't know that there is any consensus on how these cases should be handled. I think talking about these scenarios (or others) can be useful, so long as we keep in mind that the goal of figuring out general rules for inclusion/exclusion of information from the DR Wiki. --[[User:Basselope|Basselope]] 23:04, 29 November 2007 (CST)
:I'm not going to comment on all your scenarios right now, mostly because it's late and I'm not thinking as clearly as I could be. However, I would hope that Elanthipedia (or as you called it by its former name DRWik) would be used OOCly. Much like information gleaned on the forums or other such venues. Unless specifically stated, IMO, articles much like the [[Natashya]] article are for background and informative purposes only. Most of the information can (read: '''should''') be available to all players if they care to look for it. In that vein, all RP should be available to all players if they care to try to join in on events. That brings me to a question... what exactly would you define as a "secret" event? We all pay to play this game, and no participation rights should be held from anyone if they put forth the effort to get to know the plot and RP with it. But I digress...

:I really would have liked to know the user's reasons for not wanting his/her name mentioned in the article you cited, besides just "not wanting" the name mentioned. It would have been nice, and would help in this discussion. Like I said on the talk page, I'm not familiar with the events enough to know the extent of their involvement. ... And now I've drawn a blank as to where I was going with this. Will post again tomorrow. --[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 23:31, 29 November 2007 (CST)

I am of the opinion that all information should be shared, as it isn't an IC venue. If people take it in game, well they're probably not worthy of your (general) time. I understand that some people may not want what their character is up to revealed, but having thought long and hard about it (since my character has been involved in shady dealings in the past) it is the truth, and as long as it was presented in as unbiased a way as possible I could deal with it. Clearly not everyone will feel this way, but I think in order to maintain the wikiness and usefulness of the Elanthipedia it should be that way. Perhaps disclaimers reminding people that the information is not IC and should probably not be taken as such? Editing this a bit, because I don't think I was clear. There are things that obviously, from here your character would and (likely should) know. History, general events. It's obviously up to each use to make the call on what they would conceivably know. I lost my train of thought with this, but I hope someone gets what I'm trying to say. --[[User:Ysselt|Ysselt]] 15:14, 30 November 2007 (CST)

As one of the people mentioned in the article I wish my name removed as well as all of the other player character names unless they specifically grant the author the right to include it. Part of roleplaying in DragonRealms as a darker, or even good guy, is hiding the morally gray and/or terrible things that you do. These actions effect the story and remain quiet, yet the main points are still available for Joe Bob from the wider pool of knowledge.

You've all cited that information pulled from non-game sources is OOC, but you have to realize the fallacy. All it takes is one person to mention something, then their friend knows it, and then their friends friends knows it. Suddenly everyone through in game sources has detailed information that originally was not available to the public and there is no turning this back. If this is going to turn into a freedom of information discussion in roleplay then so be it. I am of the opinion that those who seek something out get the information and involvement that they desire (at least with me) if they make an attempt. It comes down to those who I am not familiar with and that know the actions of my character fill me with a sense of privacy invasion.

Reading through the article, the first sentence under "The Triad" section aptly describes the acts of the individuals that Natashya associated with and conjures all of the standard stereotypes in my mind. Going beyond that and naming names does nothing to further the article except to make it more factually correct at the expense of those involved. --[[User:Maje|Maje]] 03:22, 1 December 2007 (CST)

As I explained to Naeya, part of my enjoyment from participating in events is how I choose to divulge my experience to others. I like having a sense of ownership over my character's actions, and how I choose to share information about her interactions OOCly. As this is the internet, there are obviously places in which I have no control over where information is posted about my character. However, the wiki format of Elanthipedia does allow me some control, and I choose to take advantage of it.

As far as the Natashya event is concerned, I find that Basselope accurately described my involvement: '''"A player character was centrally and publicly involved in an event ... but the player character's involvement was not generally public."''' Due to the nature of my character's profession and various affiliations, knowledge of her involvement with Natashya was limited to few, very specific individuals. There was no indication at the time of my involvement (nor during the article's authorship) that my actions in game would later be reproduced in an OOC format such as Elanthipedia. If I had known, perhaps I would have been more selective with whom I was sharing information.

Naeya wrote, ''"That brings me to a question... what exactly would you define as a "secret" event? We all pay to play this game, and no participation rights should be held from anyone if they put forth the effort to get to know the plot and RP with it."'' I agree, in general. However, knowing the plot OOCly does not equal knowing the plot ICly. Even with all the claims that this is an OOC forum, I am perhaps just too pessimistic to have such an outlook. If anything, this experience has taught me to be '''MORE''' wary of revealing information than actually sharing it.--[[User:Pythea|Pythea]] 04:38, 1 December 2007 (CST)

I disagree that people involved in events should necessarily have control over whether their character names appear on the event pages or not. As long as the information is neutral and objective --which is how the Natashya page seemed--, I don't see a problem. Otherwise, we'd have to allow, say, Pathian, to censor MWP pages if he no longer wanted to be known as Tethia's parent for one reason or another. Yes, I'm aware that's a stretch.

The only reason I could see justification for it would be that the event in question is actively being continued. From what I've understood, it has concluded for the most part.--[[User:Aetherie|Aetherie]] 05:49, 1 December 2007 (CST)

The point is not whether the writing is neutral or objective. The point is that as a member of Elanthipedia, I feel I should have the right to choose where my character's name is placed and where it isn't. A tasteful example of how an event can be summarized is the page on [[Kalag The Black]]. No specific PCs were mentioned, other than Enef, because the progression of the story did not require specific names. I feel the Natashya storyline can be adequately summarized in a similar way, but the author chooses to disregard the alternative to her version, claiming it will be inaccurate otherwise.

Also, while the Natashya event has slowed down in recent weeks, it has not concluded to my understanding and awareness of events.--[[User:Pythea|Pythea]] 06:56, 1 December 2007 (CST)

:Really interesting discussion, and here's my two cents. I should also state that I wasn't involved in the Natashya event thread and still know almost nothing about it:

:We are not a strict encyclopedia like Wikipedia is. Given the much smaller community and much smaller scope, requirements of non-original research and citability aren't as important here. I think we should be less formal than that, which unfortunately means there will necessarily be a bit more messiness. I don't think there's any way to prevent this kind of dust-up from occuring from time to time, but I personally don't mind that, as long as we can all walk away satisfied that things were done fairly.

:I do agree that Elanthipedia should be entirely OOC. '''People''' come here to learn about DR the game, and everything within it (or around it, behind it) that interests them, not their character.

:To the point at hand: the issue of a player wanting their name removed from a history article. There are two competing interests at play, 1) maximum accuracy, and 2) personal wishes of the person in question.

:While I believe Elanthipedia should be as accurate and complete as possible, my first impulse is to be generous. If someone wants their name removed, I would call that a personal prerogative, and acquiesce. To do otherwise is to be unkind, and can lead to bad feelings. '''HOWEVER''' I believe that right has limits. If the player's involvement was truly central to the event in question, and he/she held a very public role in it, to the extent that removing his/her name would significantly reduce the value of the article about it, then the name should stand. If the involvement was secret or behind-the-scenes, and the player wishes his/her name not to be included, it should be removed.

:I disagree with the idea that the default position should be not to include names unless permission is previously and expressly granted, since IMO that is an unreasonable hurdle to put in front of a good-faith editor. That policy would stifle contributions unduly.

:Also along those lines, I think it's important to remember that DR is a community game. It's impossible to fully control how you are perceived, and it's impossible to prevent other people from talking about you. Elanthipedia isn't the venue to try and extend that control, either. You have the right to remove your name everywhere it appears, but other people have the equal right to replace it.

:So in a nutshell this is what I propose:

:*Whether or not to name players involved in events should be based on how public their involvement was, with the bias towards maintaining a player's privacy.
:*Editors should respect a player's wishes who does not want his/her character's name included.
:*If however that player played such a central and public role that exclusion of his/her identity would make the article significantly less meaningful, then the name should stand.

:Now to respond to some of Basselope's thoughts:

:"An article mentions a player character in a negative light." --Ideally, the article will neither be positive or negative, it should be neutral and factual. If an article is negative, that's bias and it should be rewritten for a more neutral and reportorial tone.

:"Players request the exclusion of particular information which does not support their interpretation of events." -- Again, in this case it sounds like the original material is based on opinion, and thus not neutral enough. I would recommend a section or subarticle that allows inclusion of multiple perspectives. Removing another editor's contributions because you disagree with it ''but cannot factually disprove it'' is censorship. If something is '''clearly''' and '''demonstrably''' false then it should be removed, with a note on the edit and an explanation on the talk page.

:"A player character participates in an event and later adds information about that event to the DR Wiki. The GM involved requests that the information be removed because it is (part of a secret event/is part of a game secret, such as how to join the Thieves' guild/annoying). --GM involvement on the wiki has been non-existent (at least, none under any GM names that I am aware of), and a GM user holds no special ability to dictate content here above the ability of other users. Nor does an admin, for that matter. In this case, I think the information should be handled like we handle any other in-game secret.

: --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 17:34, 1 December 2007 (CST)
:::I'll be brief, "fully agreed". and in the case of edit-wars we should "of course" protect the pages and an admin/community member could work with the conflicting sides to help find a happy medium. (edit wars are bad). --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 00:32, 2 December 2007 (CST)
::Would it be unfair to request that if someone wants their name removed (and/or removes it themselves ahead of time), that they post in the talk page with a reason why? --[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 17:55, 1 December 2007 (CST)
:::I would say in the comment and/or the Talk page could be useful (or even required). But I do have to wonder how often that would actually be done, "My name was included in the '''Mass Murderers in the Sorrow War''' article, but I only killed two or three people, so I was not a real mass murderer...." is not going to really get typed in its talk page, if they don't want to be associated with that article at all. (To use a far-fetched example) --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 00:32, 2 December 2007 (CST)

My name got mentioned so I thought I would weigh in on the topic. I don't feel I would have the right to censor myself from the wiki in regards to my role in the Mirror Wraith Prophecy. It's an event where others were involved and there were many witnesses. If you see or know about something in game I say it's absolutely fair to post about it here...whether I may want it told or not. I think the Natashaya event falls under the same light. If it's relatively known to be factual by several individuals in game then sure, feel free to post it up here as valuable information.

--[[User:Pathian|Pathian]] 20:50, 1 December 2007 (CST)

:I agree here --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 00:32, 2 December 2007 (CST)

::Just one more thing ;-) ... For literally years the DR community was held to "IC-ok" news standards which were used by MANY people, "The Wrens Nest", which I repeatedly heard of people as using in an IC way, (as the site was designed to let you refer to the info ICly). All the knowledge on events etc there, was based on names known, not "Oooo this guys an NPC" or "well player-character Callek stood up to the gorbesh in the lute room". it was simply "Wren did..." etc. And for that matter, I believe many people thought Wren was a real player character (having been a part of the Bard guild for a while before being in that event). So sometimes the line between "player character" and "GMNPC" can be quite thin. --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 00:32, 2 December 2007 (CST)

I echo Pathian's sentiments. As far as I'm concerned this is a completely OOC venture. I've consulted it as such, and have written what little I have with that in mind. To subject this place to the typical backbiting, social proxy-wars, and moronic attempts at personal sabotage that so thoroughly permeate the greater events community would be a great disservice. Allowing people to patrol and censor the content here to further their wider strategy toward whatever end they're seeking from or in DR would be a bad move. --[[User:Urwin|Urwin]]

Wow! Lots of interesting stuff here since I last posted. A few thoughts (brief because I accidentally deleted my first version):

1) Pythea asks about how to determine how secret an event is. One possible brief definition: not public. But I think that in the sentences immediately before asking that question, she provides a good description for secret: "my character's profession and various affiliations, knowledge of her involvement with Natashya was limited to few, very specific individuals. There was no indication at the time of my involvement (nor during the article's authorship) that my actions in game would later be reproduced in an OOC format such as Elanthipedia." I think one weakness of this description, though, is that it concerns secrecy at the time the event occurs, not at some later point. Can others come up with a better definition?

2) Farman notes that my hypothetical "article that mentions a character in a negative light" is impossible in the case of an article written from NPOV. I'd like to modify what I wrote earlier, to be "an article that mentions actions a character took which would be viewed negatively by most." In this case, there is a real threat to particular kinds of roleplaying if people take OOC information into the game.

3) Callek brings up some great stuff about the Wren's Nest. It's too bad people don't use it more. That said, I'm thinking about how the Wren's Nest (or other quasi-IC venues) should be treated with respect to secrecy. What happens if somebody spills the beans about a secret event at the Wren's Nest, in the play.net IC forums, or just yells about it in front of the bank for a week?

4) Naeya makes a good suggestion that players wanting information excluded should post to the relevant discussion page. This way, the entire community can reach a consensus on the issue rather than a single editor making that decision, potentially from a position of ignorance about the event/character(s) involved. So, I've modified Farman's (very nice) proposed policies:

:*A player wishing to have information about a character excluded should express that desire in the relevant discussion page(s).
:*The player's wishes for privacy should be weighed against how public and significant the character's involvement was.
:*Where reasonable, the player's wishes should be granted.
:*If however that player played such a central and public role that exclusion of his/her identity would make the article significantly less meaningful, then the name should stand.

How does that sound? I think there is still a missing piece with the issue of 'secret', but I think we are making valuable progress towards some sort of policy on when and why to exclude information from the DR Wiki. Let's keep the thoughts coming. --[[User:Basselope|Basselope]] 03:36, 2 December 2007 (CST)

My thoughts.

Elanthipedia is a resource with the potential to make the game world a richer place for everyone who uses it by serving as a repository of background information. For it to fulfill that potential and to be true to the wiki concept, its articles have to be complete to the extent possible and factually correct to the extent they can be checked. When an article is about a historical event, the who, what, why, when and where all need to be addressed as accurately as possible. An article where names have been withheld is no longer a complete or factually correct article, and that betrays the wiki concept and does a disservice to Elanthipedia's readers.

Some people have claimed they have a privacy right and that their right to privacy entitles them to control any information on this wiki that relates to them. I think this is a fallacy. Where events are concerned, they have become part of DR's ongoing story and their deeds or words are part of the historical record. Elanthipedia's primary purpose is to make that historical record accessible, so its first duty must be to correctly representing the events.

If Elanthipedia took the position that its first duty should be to protecting privacy rights, or that privacy rights should be respected "whenever possible", its mission would become hopelessly mired in the self-interests of reader-editors. Elanthipedia would become a propaganda page, and that would destroy its value as a repository of information.

Some people have argued that information should be redacted or suppressed because its release might cause them to come to harm or damage their reputations. This is a valid concern. Elanthipedia moderators should weigh the interest of preserving the historical record against the potential of harming an individual. However, this should be a strict test. If the information is part of the historical record - that is, it relates to Events - the information should be released because Elanthipedia's first duty is to preserving the historical record. If the information is strictly personal, then the information should be suppressed only if the subject requesting the suppression can demonstrate that its release would do them material harm.

Are any events secret? IC, yes. OOC, no. All events are part of the historical record. No event should be censored from Elanthipedia because it is secret, because Elanthipedia is an OOC resource and there are no OOC secret events.

Elanthipedia is particularly important for preserving information about events that are IG secrets. By definition, no one can find out about those events because the people who are involved don't talk about them IG. Anyone who knows to ask someone about the secret event will already know about the event, and hence not have to ask. Those events are nonetheless part of the historical record and constitute meaningful background information that players (not to say their characters) have a right know about.

To summarize my thoughts, I believe that Elanthipedia's primary mission is to be a repository of DR lore. To function in that capacity its articles must be as complete as possible and factually correct to the extent that they can be checked. Edits to articles should be allowed only when they further the goal of making an article more complete or they correct facts. No article should be suppressed unless it is purely personal and demonstrably harmful to the subject of the article.

Objectivity and completeness are what make Elanthipedia a resource worth using. I believe the moderators should definitely define a process to arbitrate disputes that arise over matters of fact. Defining processes that attempt to accomodate personal preferences for secrecy defeats the Elanthipedia concept and compromises the virtues that make Elanthipedia valuable.--[[User:Mazrian|Mazrian]] 10:19, 2 December 2007 (CST)

:I agree that the first principle is to accurately record useful information pertaining to DR, but that does not mean that other considerations must ''always'' be severely subjugated to that and ''always'' take the back seat. There is a balance that must be reached. I believe that the principle behind allowing personal requests such as we are discussing is to support building the community and maintain good will among and between different editors. If we took a draconian policy of "always maximum information about everything, all else be damned" without at least ''considering'' personal exceptions such as this, I think we would quickly find that noone will want to contribute. This is why NPOV is so important, to ''try'' and stay above the drama (it's not always possible, I know). When articles include information about active player characters, it is hard to maintain neutrality since personalities and relationships get involved. That is why I think we should lean towards respecting personal wishes, in accordance with the proposed policy. I don't mind sacrificing a little bit of accuracy or completeness if the alternative means endless edit wars and alienating people. Note that I said '''a little bit''' of accuracy. IMO privacy requests ''should'' be respected whenever possible, and I don't think doing so will destroy the wiki, on the contrary I believe that it will help preserve it. "Whenever possible" doesn't mean "always" and it doesn't mean "never".

:I think we're all in basic agreement here, and it seems that the real question is about exactly where to draw the line, not whether or it should be drawn at all. I think that's always going to come down to a judgment call on the part of editors, and the personal wishes of the people cited. In other words, it's always going to be messy. I don't mind that, either. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 12:17, 2 December 2007 (CST)

Those are all great points, Farman. Collaboration is the strength of a wiki format, so a policy that encourages collaboration is ideal. However, the solution to the problem of today is to take a principled stand that will solidify the wiki's credibility tomorrow and thereafter.

If you go along with personal requests in this case, you will only have peace until someone else with a self-interest in changing history decides to initiate an edit war and claim a personal exemption. You will not be able to maintain NPOV, because the final forms of all your articles will have to conform to the POV of the most committed self-interested editor.

Taking the principled stand is the only way to rise above the drama you say you want to avoid.

If you take a principled stand and disallow personal exemptions except for purely personal information that is harmful, you may lose some of the people who are clamoring for exemptions now, true. However, those are short-term consequences and I submit that the people clamouring for censorship are precisely the people who are not interested in sharing information in a public forum anyway. There is nothing gained from trying to keep them in the community except that they will stop fussing in the short term.

However, if you stand on principles, people will accept the terms of collaboration on the wiki and will understand the principles behind those terms. You will gain contributors, not lose them! A principled policy is precisely designed to protect contributors by shielding them from self-interested censorship.

If you want to rise above the drama, preserve NPOV and grow the community, the right choice is to stand on principle and not do the expediant thing. --[[User:Mazrian|Mazrian]] 13:13, 2 December 2007 (CST)

:Another point I just thought of, that I haven't seen expressed... The "trading" situation. Now, officially trading characters among players is against the Terms of Service, but it is done, and has been done. I can see points for both sides of this argument for people who do trade, which are slightly orthogonal to the actual points brought up thus far.
:;pro-character names in articles
::When taking control of your newly traded/purchases character, you can learn about key historical events your '''character''' was part of, and roleplay according to the characters history. Which as with any character you have, will be influenced by your own personality, likes, and dislikes.
:;anti-character names in articles
::A '''character''' you are now taking control of has done some very shady things in the past as far as events. These things could very well be why the person wanted to sell the character to begin with, or well.. maybe not. But either way, you consider yourself a caring and generous person and intended to use your new (higher-level) '''character''' that way, but don't want his/her past actions known to the world.
:While I can understand the reasoning against it as articulated here, I'd be more apt to ask people who '''do''' trade to find an IC explanation for their character/behavior change rather than simply go with 'omission' of facts/information. --[[User:Callek|Callek]] 16:47, 2 December 2007 (CST)

:Another issue in this situation is primary versus secondary or further removed source. I believe that primary sources SHOULD get the benefit out of the doubt at least initially on accuracy in an article. When one or more primary sources disagree with a secondary source, as is happening in this article, I believe the primary source should be followed unless some type of overwhelming evidence or a pattern of behavior emerges which would call this primary source into question. --[[User:Navak|Navak]] 19:17, 2 December 2007 (CST)

Point of clarification. The poster of the Natashya article is a primary source for most of it, or referred to a primary source for the information.--[[User:Mazrian|Mazrian]] 21:28, 2 December 2007 (CST)

If the poster is referring to a primary source, the poster isn't a primary source. Some of the issues held in contention are those presented by secondary or further removed sources versus a primary source. --[[User:Navak|Navak]] 21:45, 2 December 2007 (CST)

Navak, you're pushing a weak point. She was present for a lot of the events she's talking about and no one is really disputing the facts of the matter.--[[User:Mazrian|Mazrian]] 21:51, 2 December 2007 (CST)

:'''I completely agree with Farman.''' Although this is a Wiki and we want as much comprehensive information as possible, we should not be so strict as to disregard people's wishes about their own characters' names. I think the three governing rules Farman suggested were dead on when considering when to allow a person to remove their own character's name from an article:
:*Whether or not to name players involved in events should be based on how public their involvement was, with the bias towards maintaining a player's privacy.
:*Editors should respect a player's wishes who does not want his/her character's name included.
:*If however that player played such a central and public role that exclusion of his/her identity would make the article significantly less meaningful, then the name should stand.
:My only caveat is that the first point makes it sound like posters should consider these things ''prior'' to posting - I would generally say post now and if there is a problem then follow the above mentioned guidelines. What this means to the current situation is that the names of Maje and Pythea are not so central to the plot that leaving them out effects any understanding of the plot whatsoever... so leave their names out! 
:''p.s.'' I think since this discussion is so long we should move it to its own subpage --[[User:Kraelyst|Kraelyst]] 20:16, 3 December 2007 (CST)

I have held off on contributing my two cents in favor letting people who aren't directly involved in the spawning conflict have their say. It's my work; of course I'll defend it. So I won't respond here to the vast amounts of personal criticism this issue has spawned, nor will I rehash the arguments that should be taking place on that article's talk page here. I will address the more general issues of secrecy and privacy, though, and I will try to choose my words carefully.

On the most basic level, I feel these terms are too subjective and subject to wild and unreasonable interpretation and application. First, to the general ideas of publicity and secrecy - how do you define it? What is considered "too" secret to include with regards to events or characters? The response to this question that rolls off the tongue of most of the people on this page is "public knowledge" - what is reasonable for your average Joe to know about. Yet if that became our threshold for withholding information, the vast majority of the [[Kalag The Black]] article should and must be culled in the interests of secrecy. The [[Satarra]] article should very well be utterly scrapped as well, as shockingly few even among Thieves know that she is an Enforcer (and her public identity, oddly enough, isn't mentioned at all there). Indeed, the vast majority of the [[Natashya]] article itself would have to be completely removed in favor of painting a portrait of only her public facade and nothing else.

Directly following this and using these same claims of "public knowledge" as support, we have the errant claims of individual privacy, the insistence of freedom from accountability and documentation regardless of involvement and impact, and proclamations of complete and total creative ownership of any documentation regarding either character or their actions akin to the woes of a plagiarized copyright holder. If you took this privacy argument to the same sort of logical conclusion as the secrecy argument, you would be left with the distinct possibility of being forced to tell the story of [[Tethia]]'s conception without mentioning [[Pathian]], the tale of [[Velmix]] without giving regards to [[Magmus]], or the incident of [[Arilana]]'s assassination and second miscarriage without implicating [[Enef]] or [[Meanne]]. You may call it the right of the player to erase their character's impact on the course of our setting's history and flow of cause and effect, but to do so deprives us of valuable context and even more valuable understanding of what truly happened and why it happened the way it did. You destroy and clip away and remove, and in doing so leave holes which spawn questions that may never be allowed to be answered, and in doing this you diminish everything that may rely on the story you are trying to tell.

Put plainly, events in DR are a strange and fickle thing to quantify. Their impact from the perspective of PCs and their involvement is undoubtedly significant yet largely undocumented and so often woefully underestimated in large part due to this same lack of documentation - which leads to the vicious cycle of secrecy and backbiting and which has likely lead us here today. Like it or loathe it though, those PCs ''choose'' (because yes, it is a choice, and to pretend it was thoughtlessly thrust upon them against their will is insulting to both the GMs and the participants) to go out of their way to participate in these events and in doing so alter the course of the event and indeed the playable history of the game. We exist in a game where every day we make choices that may conceivably negatively affect our character and how they may be perceived, and we are forced to live with these choices without anyone around to bail us out should it reach the ears of someone we don't want to know about it. Why should these events, which by definition are public in that they affect a greater number of people and are guided by the proverbial Hand of God, be any different? We are not, to be blunt for a moment, talking about something as ridiculous as who is text-fucking who here. We are talking about significant and lasting events that can have a huge impact on the entire greater scheme of things. The interwoven nature of most DR events makes this even more true.

The path of thoughtless censure some are asking for would be, quite frankly, unacceptable in the interests of sharing accurate and unbiased information, and I would hope that much is obvious. I do not believe any reasonable contributor to this wiki believes that this is the course of action we should be taking with regards to these articles. Yet that is what some people are proposing we do, without foresight or forethought to what precisely their proposals would actually mean. I don't mean this as an attack on the people suggesting it - it is, on the surface, a reasonable enough suggestion in the wake of undue discord. However, taken to its logical conclusion, with full knowledge that it ''would'' be misused and abused by those inspired by hubris, avarice, malice or ignorance, we can see that this is obviously not a productive solution to our problem, and does nothing but hurt the wiki and its casual users that just come here looking for answers.

Now, I realize I have been exceedingly verbose, and I thank those of you that have stuck with me so far. However, the simple fact is that there is no simple and easy solution, no all-encompassing policy that can be written to prevent vitriolic accusations and bad feelings. Indeed, as the wiki expands and has information added to it that may be distasteful to certain parties for whatever reason, these disputes will become more and more common, the claims and arguments at times more and more hysterical and defensive, and occasionally the information itself unverifiable beyond those who were specifically there to witness what happened (which I was, in this case, but that's neither here nor there). At the end of the day, the core user base of the wiki - those that have established themselves as valuable contributors and have added a great deal of content of their own volition - will have to accept, in the interests of completeness and accuracy, that there will be times when they simply have to do something that someone somewhere doesn't like, and write what they know to the best of their knowledge. I would ask, given this, that this same core established group of users be given the benefit of the doubt. Should Aetherie say a PC was central to the Dragon Priest crusade and that PC creates an account to purge any mention of them from those articles, we should side with Aetherie by default and enforce the will of the editor that is trying to expand upon the wiki, not diminish it. Without very good reasons offered for why, reasons beyond 'because I just don't want it there' or 'because it makes me look bad,' we should not allow people to cull or destroy pieces of the wiki. Factual accuracy is a valid concern and one that should be taken into consideration, but vanity or shame is not and should not be a force allowed to sway the balance.

That's about all I've got to add to this general issue. I will address a few odd and spurious claims regarding the Natashya article in particular on that article's talk page as well. I appreciate everyone that took the time to read all of that. :) [[User:Reene|Reene]] 03:49, 4 December 2007 (CST)

==Wiki vandalism==
Well, it looks like we've had our first few cases of vandalism over the past couple of days. Everything appears to be ok, though. A big thank you to the admins. One question, out of curiousity: is future vandalism by the responsible parties prevented by IP blocking? --[[User:Basselope|Basselope]] 00:41, 3 December 2007 (CST)
:It should be, yes. The violators are prevented from creating new accounts from that IP range. As for our policy about this type of vandalism, I tried to go with a warn first, ban second approach, and we see where that got us. From now on, it's 1 strike you're out with this kind of hateful language and pornographic material vandalism.--[[User:Naeya|Naeya]] ([[User talk:Naeya|talk]]) 01:04, 3 December 2007 (CST)
::Fully agreed, Naeya, and well handled. --[[User:Farman|Farman]] 17:44, 5 December 2007 (CST)

Offhand Weapon skill

2008-04-15T21:58:12Z

RCANINE: /* Training */

Offhand Weapon represents a characters ability to use a weapon in their offhand (left hand currently). It has been explicitly stated that this skill solely covers non-brawling weaponry, as brawling is considered to be a full body attack, without any sense of on- or offhand.

Offhand is often referred to as 'Dual Wielding' since one is capable of wielding a weapon in both hands and attacking with either one at any point in battle. The weapon wielded as offhand can be anything from a sword to a throwing dagger (yes, you can throw with your off hand while still holding your main weapon in your right).

Offhand attacks are a two skill contest, using 70% of your Offhand skill and 30% of the appropriate weapon skill. Likewise, the experience gained from attacking this way is also distributed 70/30.

The main use of this system is training secondary and tertiary weapons. In addition to being able to train two skills at once, due to a large portion of the skill contest being determined by Offhand Weapon, it can be highly effective for training secondary and tertiary weapon skills. A character who possesses 100 ranks in Offhand Weapon, regardless of the weapon used, will always have an effective 70 ranks when fighting offhand.

{{RTOC}}
==Restrictions==
The user's skillset placement determines the heaviest weapon they can use offhand.
*Primary Weapon: Heavy or lighter.
*Secondary Weapons: Medium or lighter.
*Tertiary Weapons: Light only.

Two-handed weapons cannot be used in the offhand.

It is not currently possible to parry with a weapon held in the offhand, although neither holding nor using a weapon in the offhand will prevent arm-worn shield use.

==Syntax and Use==
To use the offhand skill, the word "left" must immediately follow whichever attack verb is being used, as in "slice left." It is fully compatable with feint+attack and ambush, so "feint slice left" will function, as will "ambush slice left."

===Managing Combos===
Combos in Dual wielding are simply maneuvered, as well. If both weapons are edged of the same size and type, slashing or thrusting, you simply follow your combo in a line no matter which hand you attack with. In the case of both weapons being edged, one being medium and one being light, you simply move to the next attack in the sequence for the weapon you are switching to. For example, if your right hand is Medium Edged/slicing and your left hand is Light edged/thrusting, and your last attack was a sweep (right), your next attack would be: thrust left. This will maintain your balance and make sure you're still in good position.

Other combinations of weapons are effective as well, it is fully possible to wield a longsword in one hand and a hammer in the other, provided neither is a two handed weapon. Thrown weapons are highly effective from offhand since you need not lose your parry weapon when you throw them nor do you need to wield a new weapon into an empty right hand.

==Training==
Dual wielding allows a fighter to hold a lower-skilled weapon in their left hand and a higher-skilled weapon in their right, parry is still counted against your right hand weapon so you count no penalty for training the lower-skilled weapon in your left hand.

A good strategy for Dual weilding is to carry a heavier weapon in your right hand and a lighter one in your left. This allows you to change off, if you find your attacks are taking too long to execute, you can use the lighter weapon to attack faster. If you find your attacks arn't hitting hard enough, you can use the heavier weapon to cause more damage.

Thieves can also <code>BACKSTAB LEFT</code> if holding a suitable weapon in the offhand. The high damage from such an attack makes it an effective means of training.

===Training at Level===
To be completed.

===Backtraining===
The best way to backtrain Offhand Weapon Skill is to use the character's most skilled weapon, guild restrictions allowing, and hunt the most difficult creature that you are able to hit. Though you will learn little to nothing of the weapon skill, the fact you are using 30% of your best weapon will allow you to hunt much higher, and receive more experience, than you would using a lesser weapon.

==Unresolved Bugs==
* "Feint left" will be balance neutral, regardless of weapon used or previous attack.

[[Category:Weapon Skillset]]
[[Category:Skills]]
[[Category:Incomplete]]